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Post by Roo on Jun 7, 2016 16:02:58 GMT
I'm so totally fed up with Einstein's tummy upsets. Kibble is clearly not working out for him. Unfortunately, I'm not that wasteful, so I'm going to have to mix his old/existing food in with raw. In the past, he has eaten big chunks of beef, hearts, chicken wings, fish, and Ox liver mixed with kibble as a treat, and he suffered from zero upsets the days following eating this kibble/raw mixture. I have also read on a few different pages that although it's not advised to mix raw and kibble, the jury is still out on whether it is "bad" (I follow lots of raw feeding pages via Facebook, Instagram). I just want to know the basic, idiot-proof way to do this, as there will be times when my mum has to feed him, and I need it to be as easy as handing out kibble. Einstein weighs 24KG exactly, so he's a healthy weight, and he is naturally lean and mean I do not have the luxury of being able to have another freezer though, so his food will kept in our fridge and freezer (contained of course). I'm very fortunate to know a butcher personally, and also have a friend who owns a raw food shop! What meats are best to start with? I'm assuming chicken and chicken wings? When it comes to vegetables, how do you go about this? Prepackaged and ready to go raw - what brand? Is this stuff actually good? Thanks in advance!
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Post by alfiemummy on Jun 7, 2016 16:46:10 GMT
I don't really see myself as experienced enough to be giving out advice but Alfie has been on raw for nearly 2 years now (wow, is it really that long?) and although he's coming up to 8 years old he seems to be getting younger rather than older, he's never been healthier - so we must be doing something right!! I'm rubbish at actual advice but I'll just tell you what I do and see if that's helpful in any way - probably not! I have seen lots of people saying not to feed raw and kibble together and others saying that it's fine. I should think it would become fairly obvious if it was causing your dog any troubles judging what comes out the other end! When we made the switch I also didn't want to waste the kibble (I paid good money for that!) so just chucked the odd few raw meals in here and there until it was all gone and we had no trouble. I feed Alfie 400g a day and he weighs around 13kg - so that works out at about 3% of his bodyweight. He seems to do well on this amount as he is very active, I weigh him regularly and if he's putting on weight then I just cut him down, which I'll probably have to do now it's getting hotter as he doesn't run around as much. I think it's usually recommended to start on 2.5% of bodyweight and adjust as necessary. I think it's best to start on chicken or turkey and gradually add in other meats. I didn't really stick to the rules with that though as I got a bit excited lol, Alfie has an iron stomach though so he took to most meats pretty quickly. I hardly feed veg at all, mainly because I'm lazy but I also don't see it as essential. I only just have enough space in the freezer for his meat so I don't want to waste space with vegetables. At most he'll have some spinach or kale every now and then, I keep meaning to buy some more SmartBarf which I like as a substitute. If I had more space I think I'd mainly feed pre-made and I'd probably go for Paleo Ridge. I've never actually fed it before though so can't say if it's any good or not, I have heard plenty of good about them. The only pre-mades that I can remember feeding are Benyfit Natural, Natural Instinct and Nature's Menu. I wouldn't feed either BN or NM as a base but I did really like the Natural Instinct. I also need my mum to feed him sometimes, but I'll usually know in advance and deliberately defrost something easy - basically nothing that needs chewing, something that can just be decanted straight into his bowl (mince, chunks etc)
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Post by Roo on Jun 7, 2016 17:04:32 GMT
I'm quite taken by the Nature's Menu nuggets, but Einstein would need 39 a day lol. And it's £15 a week. Is everything he needs in the nuggets? What is it that has made you not use them, or want to use them? I've seen good things about Paleo Ridge too!
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Post by alfiemummy on Jun 7, 2016 18:06:57 GMT
I'm not a huge fan of the NM nuggets only because they're quite heavy on the veg. I only really like the Country Hunter nuggets as some other the other ones contain rice, and the ones that don't contain rice only have liver (and no other offal) which I find a bit confusing to fit into how I work out the offal allowance. I feed the nuggets as an added extra more than anything else, I'll probably only buy a bag every month or two. The other bonus to them is that there are different meats that I might otherwise find difficult to get hold of or too expensive for me to want to feed (for example venison), so I like that it adds variety.
I would prefer to buy their plain minces and then just add my own offal, that would give you everything that's needed and it's really simple.
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Post by alfiemummy on Jun 7, 2016 18:07:59 GMT
Forgot to add that Natures Menu have just changed their Country Hunter nuggets to add extra flavours and I think they've changed the amount of veg, so my opinion may change! I have yet to see them in any pet shops near me though.
Add: I also didn't make it clear that the Country Hunter nuggets contain no offal at all (that's why I like them) so wouldn't contain everything you need, but that's easy to fix.
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Post by bextull on Jun 7, 2016 20:25:18 GMT
Mixing raw and kibble is fine unless it causes obvious issues for the dog. People have mixed various things in with their dogs food for years, and despite the claims, there aren't deficiency ridden canines roaming the streets because of "unbalanced" diets. And the different digestion and pH rates argument changes every time I read anything about it.
Amounts to feed: 2-3% of body weight is the norm. I'd recommend 3% to start if he's quite active. Then you can adjust it if he starts gaining or losing weight.
So 3% for Einstein it would be 720g of food per day.
You can split this into however many meals you like.
There's the 80:10:10 ratio too. Personally I aim to "balance" the diet over about a week rather than every meal. Some people will do it every meal but I never had as it made it too complicated.
And the ratio is more of a guideline than an actual rule. You can mess about with it a little until you find what suits Einstein.
I've been feeding raw for a good while now and I don't weigh anything or calculate anything anymore. Oscar gets anything from 200g a day to 400g a day depending on what he's having, his activity level or what he had the day before. As for the ratio, he gets much more than 10% bone. It'd be more on the 15-20% mark.
What to feed:
I started off feeding chicken and beef.
Chicken wings,legs and thighs made up all the of the bone that Oscar got. Beef mince made up the remainder of his meal. And then after about 2 weeks I added in lambs liver.
I got butchers scraps, occasionally pork ribs, turkey drumsticks and fish. And that was all the variety that I feed for upwards of a year.
I got all of that (with exception of the scraps) from the local supermarket because I didn't have a freezer just for his food.
Now that I have a freezer just for his food though, I order in bulk from supplier as its easier and cheaper. I feed much more variety these days (although still nothing compared to what others seem to feed like venison and boar) but chicken and beef still make up the majority of Oscars diet.
Supplements/veg/extras:
I don't feed veg purely out of laziness on my part. You've got to blend it or boil it and its just too much preparation for me. I did feed it when I started but it was more hassle than it was worth and only added to the cost.
I do give fruit every now and then. Half a banana/apple/pear or some frozen berries and stuff like that. I don't prepare it before hand, other than cutting up the banana or pealing the apple.
If I were to feed veg, I'd probably just buy something like "Smart Barf". I would do it now but I don't like ordering from outside Ireland because of the exchange rate and delivery costs.
However, I do supplement. Currently I'm giving a seaweed/kelp mix, coconut oil and apple cider vinegar. The ACV is a seasonal thing though, I only give it during summer for his skin. The other 2 I'd use every 2 days usually. I do usually give fish oil also but I haven't in quite some time as I ran out.
Supplementing isn't something that you have to do but personally, I'd never not give supplements. That being said, I'm not a fan of "over supplementing" and it's something that I've noticed a lot of recently.
Premade completes:
You've got your pick of suppliers in the UK so I don't think you'd have an issue finding one that suits. But they are more expensive, especially when you can't buy in bulk.
They do take all the hassle out of feeding raw though for the most part.
I started off feeding DIY but I recently tried completes from the supplier that I use. They had duck, turkey, chicken and beef - all with added veg, coconut oil and kelp. I can't fault them on quality but it worked out at about €30 more expensive than feeding DIY.
I'd bought just over a months worth as a trial run to see if it made things easier for my mother who had to feed Oscar while I was at college. But my mother didn't actually like feeding them and Oscar didn't do very well on them. He ate them (well, he eats anything and everything - except lettuce) but he didn't look as good and I had to add extra bone anyway as he's more suited to a higher percentage of bone. Plus, I don't think he enjoyed them as much.
So that was my experience with completes.
I did use Natures menu nuggets in the beginning, but not on their own and only to add some more variety. I don't have an issue with them and I still get them from time to time if I'm running low on certain things.
As for making things easy for your mother, I have kept a food diary since last july. I write down every meal that Oscar has each day, and if I'm going anywhere I write in the meals that he is due to have on what days. This way, even if I'm not there, people can still check what he's supposed to have or if for some reason I haven't written anything in, they've got plenty of other samples to choose from (usually though if that ever happens they just throw him a chicken leg).
Worked wonders while I was at college. I'd just write in the next weeks food when I came home on weekends. My mother never had any issues and the diary itself has proved useful (I'd write in when food orders arrived, how much it all cost, if Oscar was ever sick etc).
Thats all I can think of at the moment but if you'd like sample menus I can give you a few (I've got a years worth to choose from!).
EDIT: With regards to me no longer calculating or weighing things - I did do this for a while but I worked out a system for myself that I still use up to this day. My weekly meals all follow a certain format so that I know that I'm not feeding too much of any one thing, I don't just throw something in a bowl and hand it to Oscar.
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Post by caz2golden on Jun 7, 2016 20:36:15 GMT
Forgot to add that Natures Menu have just changed their Country Hunter nuggets to add extra flavours and I think they've changed the amount of veg, so my opinion may change! I have yet to see them in any pet shops near me though. Add: I also didn't make it clear that the Country Hunter nuggets contain no offal at all (that's why I like them) so wouldn't contain everything you need, but that's easy to fix. My mum got some of the new nuggets at pets at home if you do want to try some (she got duck one here). Want to try the Pheasant and duck one with the girls. Have not given enough in one meal to comment how good they are. I did email Natures Menu requesting bone content, but was not impressed when the reply was pretty much they can not supply this info yet!
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Post by alfiemummy on Jun 7, 2016 21:18:45 GMT
I used to give a few different supplements just in case he might have been missing out on something but they all ran out months ago, I don't think he's had any since well before Christmas. He's literally just been getting a variety of meat, bones and offal and the very occasional bit of veg. I've noticed absolutely no change in him whatsoever so I'm not that concerned about it anymore. That doesn't mean I won't get more in the future though. caz2golden , the last time I went in PAH was when they had very recently come out and they didn't have any in yet. I haven't been for a couple of weeks as the freezer has been too full and I've gotten a few things from the butchers instead. I'll pop back in there when I get a bit of freezer space and see if they've got them yet! I did notice that NM have reduced the bag size of their meat chunks from 2kg to 1kg though which is handy for me, the 2kg bags took up way too much space so I could never get them. I have found with all the NM nuggets (if I feed them as the entire allowance) that Alfie's poo will be massive, which is down to the veg. I'm interested to see what he'll be like with the new nuggets as they have less veg in.
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Post by orpheous87 on Jun 7, 2016 22:09:27 GMT
I don't think I stuck to the rules regarding sticking to one protein at first either. I started off by feeding raw at weekends and kibble during the week and during the raw weekends they got a mixture of Natural Instinct and DIY type meals (although they were completely unbalanced DIY meals). Obviously I moved on to DIY more than the pre made products until Pepper had her duck neck incident. Now they get MVM complete minces, along with The Dog's Butcher wild rabbit complete mince. Like alfiemummy, I've found that Pepper in particular seems to have a whole new lease of life since being on raw, although I'm positive that this is in combination with her regular hydrotherapy sessions. I do supplement a lot, but the supplements I give are aimed at Pepper's joints and Ellie doesn't get the same supplements other than Keepers Mix, Easy Greens & golden paste. As for making things easier for your mum to feed, I tend to portion out food for both dogs on a weekly/fortnightly basis so that all I need to do each evening is lift out a tub for each dog and pop it in the fridge to defrost. Then, when it comes to mealtime, all I need to do is put it into their bowls, add the supplements, and then feed. Makes it so much easier!
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