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Post by ziggy on Dec 27, 2015 13:35:16 GMT
I would be so grateful for advice on neutering - I've researched it till I'm blue in the face and it just gets more confusing!
Our Border Collie is nearly 3 years old. He's absolutely fabulous with people of all ages, no aggression whatsoever. But he's become a nightmare with other male dogs - every walk becomes a series of confrontations where he throws himself into a rage trying to attack them. Usually this happens when both dogs are on leads approaching each other, but he has also occasionally attacked when both dogs have been off lead in the park.
He's had lots of socialisation since he was a pup and has been to regular training classes and agility days - until he wouldn't stop launching himself at the other male dogs.
I've worked with two styles of behaviourist - the first based their methods on carrot and stick, so lots of treats to get the dog's focus and very firm correction when he misbehaved. He still went crazy at other entire male dogs. The second behaviourist had very gentle methods - firm repetitive correction, trying to keep the dog still and calm.
At no sign of improvement this trainer suggested talking to our vet about castration, which we did, and a few weeks ago he had an injection that mimics castration by inhibiting testosterone, to see if the op would be right for him.
The injection was supposed to take effect within a few days and last for a month, to give us time to make a decision. Three weeks on, we have seen no improvement - the confrontations are getting worse.
Please does anyone have experience of a similar problem (a very laid-back gentle dog who's great with people - but a complete nightmare with other male dogs) - and thoughts on what to do next? I'm aware that castration can make a nervous dog worse, which is why it feels like such a big decision.
Please help!
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Post by bectil on Dec 27, 2015 16:51:56 GMT
Hi ziggy , welcome to the forum! Your Collie is absolutely beautiful Your Collie sounds very similar to my Whippet X Staffy, except my Alfie's issues started after he was neutered. Do you know what has triggered him to dislike male dogs, and when you say 'attack' is he aggressive or is just noisy? Avoid any telling off, and keep to positive reinforcement. When in the house and on his walks, teach him 'Watch Me' with a high value treat/his favourite toy. When you pass another male dog, tell your dog to 'Sit' and 'Watch Me'. My Alfie and I start obedience classes in January and our trainer has agreed to help me with Alfie and his reactivity towards young male dogs, so I'll get back to you with what we learn and as to whether there is any improvement.
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Post by caz2golden on Dec 27, 2015 17:28:49 GMT
Sorry unable to help own female not male dogs. gypsy can it take longer than a month on injections to see a reduction in natural hormones? Just wondering if its worth Ziggy trying more than one months worth of injections? As bectil has already put, depends what is behind the aggression (hormones, bad experience such as being attacked, old injury that makes him feel more vulnerable, nervousness......) If it is nervousness then removing hormones can make the problem worse. Good luck finding the right way forward for him. Hope some of the training techniques start working. Its good to hear that you have tried a few training methods to try and work out what will work for you and your dog. Wonder if Pawsforthought, cazypops or bextull might be able to advises!
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Post by cazypops on Dec 27, 2015 18:49:09 GMT
Sorry I can't had any more to what has already been said, but I agree that if the infection hasn't worked then it probably isn't hormone related. Our Jasper is an intact male and like your boy is the most loving and unaggressive dog you would ever want to meet, but when he meet certain staffie males he will just switch. We know what the cause of this is and are working on it. If he reacts he's pulled away sharpish and told firmly naughty, if he doesn't react he gets lots of praise. I have to say it's easier to just cross the road when we know this will happen (ie meeting a neighbours dog) I'm sure that gypsy will be able to advise you more than I can. Good luck and let us know how you get on.
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Post by ziggy on Dec 27, 2015 20:39:59 GMT
Thanks so much for your replies so far - really helpful.
Bectil - his reactions are properly aggressive, not just barking, as if he's trying to attack the other dog. I will certainly try the 'watch me' with high value treats - he already knows this command so that's a good start.
Cazypops - yes, I worry that it's not hormone related, and maybe we need another injection to find out, if the first one might not have kicked in. He does tend to completely avoid interaction and confrontation with other male dogs if he's off the lead, which makes me wonder if the aggression is coming from feeling nervous and cornered - as if he feels he has to strike first. He loves socialising with female dogs by the way - it's a dominant male thing.
I'll report back on any progress - thanks again.
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Post by migsy on Dec 27, 2015 23:15:22 GMT
Ziggy;one of my late B.C.s had tablets to see if they worked,they didn't so vet said putting him through the operation would have been a waste of time and money.He was fine off lead,as he knew he could escape,but awful on lead if passing German Shepherds as one had gone for him countless times from being a pup,so he hated them and probably felt under threat on the lead.Distraction usually works to a large degree.Be calm,have treat in your hand,and hold it near his nose until you pass other dog and then give him the treat.He will learn meeting other dogs is pleasant,as he gets a treat.Very important is to be cool and calm,as a dog senses stress and can smell fear. Good luck,don't give up,relax and you will get there.Collies are fantastic and worth the work,it always pays off. P.s. you can stay quiet while holding the treat,or a cheerful "walk on!" command, then praise by the bucketful when no reaction.
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Post by ziggy on Dec 28, 2015 9:58:54 GMT
Thank you Migsy, I'm going to try this. Thanks also for your encouragement - very heartening!
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Post by zahada on Dec 28, 2015 12:30:56 GMT
Sorry to hear about the problems you are having. If the injection (Tardak?) had no effect, you could try a longer lasting treatment - implants called Suprelorin. They last upto 6 months, during which time you should be able to see if the problem is testostorone derived. If it is not, not much point castrating your dog. Aggression treated with corrections is not working, are you able to find a behaviourist who will not use any aversive? Such as www.apbc.org.uk/? Your dog's aggression may be a learnt behaviour. You don't say when it started. He may have discovered it during his early adolescence stage, and never learnt to behave differently.
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Post by ziggy on Jan 3, 2016 12:14:50 GMT
Thanks Zahada for your helpful advice and links. Yes, the injection was Tardak. Looking back, I think he could have learned reactive behaviour at puppy classes. They were good for socialising him at first, but when all the pups hit adolescence it became pretty chaotic, with some of the male dogs (including mine) choosing enemies. I was taught to grasp each side of his collar, give him a firm shake and shout 'no!' to teach him he couldn't get away with negative encounters. He became worse and we stopped going. We went to weekend classes (still on the lead) for a while instead, but he would become so wound up around other male dogs that he'd be trying to throw himself at them in a rage - so we stopped going there too. He would be completely beside himself before we'd even got out of the car. The firm corrective methods suggested there seemed to work fine for many of the other dog owners - we liked the instructor and there was plenty of fun in the class as well as firm instruction. But my Border Collie just seemed to fall apart at being shouted at and not be able to do anything at all. I know if he'd been off lead he would have been likely to run away from other dogs or avoid them - but obviously that's no help in an obedience class, and he felt obliged to square up to other dogs when we got anywhere close. So yes, you've made me think about when he started being like this - and how I've inadvertently contributed to reinforcing it. I'm all in favour of the behavioural route to getting him back on track, and will persist. I've a feeling that the testosterone inhibition is a bit if a red herring - he's an extremely placid dog in every other context. His only issue is with other male dogs (and big motorbikes, which is obviously fear). His nature is quite shy and he's so well mannered with every kind of person. Our vets told me about CARE - a positive reinforcement system for reactive dogs - and there is a very helpful website at careforreactivedogs.comI'm also learning a lot from the Reactive Dogs Facebook site, and can identify with many of the issues. The positive behaviour, through creating distractions on walks, fits in very well with the suggestions from forum members here - and certainly seems the way to go. For additional back-up, I think the APBC may be my next port of call! Thanks again for advice - I'll report back on progress.
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Post by zahada on Jan 3, 2016 12:28:08 GMT
I am glad that you are now able to see where/when/how the problem may have started. And at 3 years old, the road to normality might be long. And, I suspect, there will be many setbacks.
But if you find a behaviourist, who in your opinion, is suggesting things that are right for you and your dog, you should be able to get there. And we are here to applaud your every success - and every, even tiny, step in the right direction is important - yet many people miss them and only concentrate on the failures and give up. We are here to provide a shoulder to cry on if needed. Many of us have had a fair share of problems with our dogs, so can empathise.
Good luck.
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Post by migsy on Jan 3, 2016 15:10:28 GMT
So sorry to hear about your dogs heavy handed training experiences ziggy,completely wrong for a Border Collie. Heavy handed treatment either breaks their spirit or can make them aggressive.They are actually very sensitive and need firm but not aggressive handling.At our training club we were told from the start that hands are only ever used for hand signals,the tone of your voice should be enough to show they are doing wrong.We used to do part of a lesson using only hand signals which was great fun,and proved to us how far the dogs and us had come.We were also told the dangers of using hands to chastise a dog,such as a child reaching out to them,and the dog thinking those hands were about to hurt them,with possibly disastrous results. Now you know when and how the problem was caused,you can now follow the right training regime,he is a young dog,intelligent,so you will get there.It will be lovely to hear about his progress.Good luck,and have fun.
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Post by McCuddles on Jan 3, 2016 20:11:07 GMT
Hi ziggy, your boy is absolutely gorgeous! I really hope you get somewhere with him, border collies are such a sensitive breed. Thanks for the link about CARE, I'm going to have a good read through it. I too have a reactive BC, she's five and a half years old now, she hates all other dogs, not fussed whether they are male or female. I think it's more to do with their energy, for example my neighbour had an elderly collie and she would happily walk alongside her as they basically ignored each other and the other dog Pip was so calm, but lo behold any dog that dares to run up to Dotty in the park for a play, they get snapped at and snarled at, not fun if the other dog runs rings round me and the owner doesn't give a hoot. Dotty went to training and socialisation until she was 18 months old, but knowing what I know now and looking back I can see now she wasn't happy. It's easy to look back and think how I probably unwittingly contributed to the problem. On the plus side she has taught me so much about my own stress management and how to hopefully be able to manage hers better and avoid those situations which do stress her out. I wish you the very best of luck with your progress together and please do keep us updated. And of course more pics please!!
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Post by Pawsforthought on Feb 2, 2016 0:41:05 GMT
Hello ziggyI'm so sorry to hear about the problems you have been having with your beloved Collie. This is a very tricky issue, and no one is going to be able to solve this with a simple piece of advice. However, I do have one piece of advice: do NOT neuter him. I would suggest that the injections will have zero effect on his behaviour, as a balanced intact dog does not have any reason to attack another dog. This suggests a lack of balance, rather than having anything to do with him having his bits. I have an autistic dog. I mean, there's no official diagnosis, but we're about as sure as anyone can be that he is autistic, he is not "right," he has a lot of obsessive behaviours etc. etc. I won't go on about that. The point is, at the age of 6 he was neutered, and it had NO effect whatsoever. He is dog reactive, because he learnt an association because dogs have always attacked him. My mum felt obliged to neuter him after he broke out of their garden and attacked a dog, but of course nothing has changed since his operation (because my parents don't put any work in.) Collies are particularly sensitive dogs, and I would suggest that your trainers' suggestions to use punishment may be the catalyst for this behaviour. It seems as if anxious behaviour from him combined with that punishment (shaking him) have unfortunately made him into the bomb ready to go off that he is. The good thing is, this can be undone and without any need to remove any body parts You also inadvertently taught him that he cannot express his emotions. Dogs, like humans, experience a wide range of emotions and punishing the expression of strong emotions like fear or anger can lead to a dog who is always ready to explode. The most beneficial way to allow free expression for a naturally nervous dog is to teach them an alternative way to express themselves that is manageable for you and your dog. "My Border Collie just seemed to fall apart at being shouted at and not be able to do anything at all." - there is your evidence, your dog cannot handle punishment, be it shouting or shaking! He needs a really good, POSITIVE trainer. ANY aversive methods (corrections, shaking, smacking him, making loud noises to make him jump) WILL make him worse. It has been scientifically proven that any methods that incorporate punishment, even if that punishment is simply the lack of a reward, are nowhere near as effective as positive, cognitive methods that shape your dog's behaviour in ways that promote confidence. Your dog sounds like he is massively lacking in confidence. I would recommend as something you can start doing right now, that you stop shouting and correcting, you start talking happily and gently to him, and you engage in confidence building games. One such example is tug of war, but you must let him win more often than you. This has been proven in studies to increase general levels of happiness in dogs and make them more likely to want to play with their owners in future, an exercise that is so healthy and important for a good relationship. Also, for now, since he cannot handle male dogs, try to limit his exposure as much as you can until you have the tools to begin to address his behaviour. A couple of amazing books to invest some money and time in that should improve your relationship and understanding: "In Defense of Dogs" by John Bradshaw and "The Genius of Dogs" by Dr Brian Hare. If you have a Facebook account, I highly recommend you join this group for Canine Autism Spectrum Disorder, as despite their name they have a great understanding of a huge variety of dog behaviours and may help to rule out the possibility of a psychological cause you may not be aware of: www.facebook.com/groups/382767805136149/?fref=tsI cannot recommend any trainers or behaviourists in particular, but I must stress the importance of NO AVERSIVE METHODS. Lol Case study: Max, the dog down the road from us. Max came to his owner as an adult rescue. He interacted readily with both of our dogs, he was "normal!" Max's new owner was very nervous and shouted at him when he was around dogs. Max began to become aggressive with other dogs, he bit our neighbour's puppy in the face unprovoked! Max met our dog a while afterwards off lead and launched an attack, he was hard to drag off. We wrote to his owner, and said she must keep him on lead. She told us she was taking him to a gamekeeper. That was not a good thing for us to hear. Soon after, she appeared with a cane. She uses this cane, by order of the gamekeeper, to "correct" Max, and she holds him to the ground when he misbehaves. The gamekeeper also told her to hit his face away with her hand from other dogs when he sees them. Now, Max is a totally different dog. His level of aggression is explosive. He can no longer go off lead, and if he sees a dog walking near him he is uncontrollable. So please ditch the aversive methods, they really do not work. Max is a sweet dog, he is very shy and nervous, and unfortunately he has an owner who thinks she is doing the right thing but who is making things far, far worse than they ever would have been otherwise all because of a "trainer" with no idea about dog psychology who has convinced her he knows what to do. And lastly, a video by a lady who really knows what she is talking about to back up my anti-neutering stance: I sincerely hope you find the way to help your boy. He must feel so anxious to behave in such a way, and I know it isn't nice for you dreading those encounters on walks, so for both of you I hope you can get him through it.
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Post by migsy on Feb 2, 2016 14:12:51 GMT
This is a wonderful post Pawsforthought.Heavy handed old fashioned 'dog training' has a lot to answer for,my blood ran cold at the mention of a cane and smacking the dogs face.Its heartbreaking to know it still goes on because some owners think these people have 'experience'. I posted ages ago about an older man who was punching a Whippet in the face as they approached me walking Skip,I couldn't believe my eyes!his words were 'its all it understands' or similar.I kept my cool and told him the dog was barking because it knew it was going to get hit, so was telling Skip to keep away.I gave him a treat to hold as another friends dog was approaching,and told him to hold the treat near the dog to distract it,(no frantic barking)and told him to give the dog the treat when the dog got past.It worked like a charm.I doubt if he kept that up, as the next time I saw him and the dog was good,I had to say 'well praise him then!'.Later he told me both Whippets has gone to a rescue place.To think anyone could even dream of striking a dog like a Whippet and do it in front of people is worrying as they clearly think there is nothing wrong with such cruelty.I regret to this day not reporting him to the dog warden, believing he would carry treats to correct the dog as he was so surprised how well they worked.
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