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Post by maddz27 on Apr 14, 2013 14:14:02 GMT
I have a sprocker called luna, who is 1 in may. She had the perfect recall, i could call her off anything, literally anything, but she started to copy my other dog, tilly, who doesnt have a sharp recall, but is at a comfortable level for me. Luna now sniffs around like tilz, and even if tilly comes luna waits for ages. i cant get close to her and put her lead on like i can with tilz because she is FAST!!!!! like a whippet, literally. She has got worse lately, and if she's on to something, i can't catch her for another half an hour. i show her that being with me is best, using squeaky toys and handfuls of treats, but nothing works! I bought a 15m long lead a few weeks ago, i was amazed at how quickly she came back! after about 3/4 times of using it with a failure, i let her off, and off she was!! i couldnt catch her for ages. i have tried breaking the habit by walking her on the lead to a different place each day, and even stopped all of her walks for a week, but i am seriously thinking about rehoming her, because with out walks she is a nutter (she is anyway but even more so!) I know she is a working dog, that is why i wanted her, and we go agility training a couple of times a week and when she was better at recall, and hours walk every day! i also use mind games and training every day, so it's not like she is under stimulated!! please, i desperately need your hep, it will tear my heart again if i have to rehome her.
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Post by bextull on Apr 14, 2013 14:35:28 GMT
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Post by bextull on Apr 14, 2013 14:59:08 GMT
Also, as a mix of 2 hunting breeds perhaps a hunting related activitymay prove useful. If she likes to sniff, then how about scentwork? Very easy to do and i found that once i started doing scentwork with my dog he didnt feel the need to run off and sniff by himself because he could it with me and get much more from it, like food, praise etc.
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Post by orpheous87 on Apr 14, 2013 15:55:09 GMT
Bextull's given probably the best advice. I was going to suggest a long line too. If you feel like you might be able to let her off after a while, but are still wary, you could always get a long line made of lighter material. That way, if she bolts when she thinks she's 'free', you can still stop her and guide her back. This link has a free podcast that could be useful too: intellidogs.com/blog/come-back-dog/Like Bextull said, I think rehoming her just because she's stopped recalling would be a bit extreme. I think all dogs go through that phase and you just have to keep working on the recall. They'll get it eventually. Good luck  |
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Post by smokeybear on Apr 14, 2013 16:49:53 GMT
Why can’t I get a reliable recall?
‘Come’ is no harder to train than any other behaviour but in real life it has a huge number of criteria that have to be raised one at a time in order to guarantee success.
Often when puppies are brought home to their new owners this is the first time they have ever been separated from their dam and siblings and so they naturally attach themselves to their new family by following them about everywhere. Owners find this quite attractive and wrongly assume that this trait will continue into adolescence/adulthood, whatever the circumstances. A dangerous trap to fall into…
At some point in time, usually from around 6 – 10 months, depending on the individual, “Velcro” dog will morph into “Bog off” dog (this is especially true of a breed that has been developed to exhibit a high degree of initiative). This is the time when owners suddenly realize that their dog will not recall when it sees another dog/person etc. Not only is this inconvenient but potentially dangerous as the dog could be at risk of injury from a car/train/another dog etc.
How and when do I start with a puppy?
My advice is to prepare for this inevitability from the day you take your puppy home. If you are lucky the breeder will have started this process whilst still in the nest by conditioning the puppies to a whistle blown immediately before putting the food bowl down during weaning.
Dogs learn by cause and effect ie sound of whistle = food. If you, the new owner, continue this from the moment your puppy arrives you will lay down strong foundations for the future.
By using the whistle in association with meals/food you need to establish the following criteria:
• Come from across the room.
• Come from out of sight
• Come no matter who calls
• Come even if you are busy doing something else
• Come even if you are asleep.
• Come even if you are playing with something/someone else
• Come even if you are eating
Once this goal has been realized in the house, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the garden.
Once this goal has been realized in the garden, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the park/field etc.
To train this, or any other behaviour:
1. Make it easy for the dog to get it right
2. Provide sufficient reward
Do not expect a dog to come away from distractions in the park until you have trained it to come to you in the park when no diversions are around. Be realistic and manage your expectations; your sphere of influence/control over your dog may be only 20m to begin with, therefore do not hazard a guess that the dog, at this level of training, will successfully recall from 50m or more away. Distance, like every other criterion, must be built up over time.
Some simple rules to follow when training the recall:
• Whistle/signal/call only once (why train the dog to deliberately ignore your first command?)
• Do not reinforce slow responses for the dog coming eventually after it has cocked its leg, sniffed the tree etc (you get what you train!)
• If you know that the dog will not come back to you in a certain situation, go and get him rather than risk teaching him that he can ignore you. (If you have followed the programme correctly you will never put your dog in a position to fail).
• Practise recalling the dog, putting him on the lead for a few seconds, reinforce with food/toy etc and immediately release the dog. Do this several times during a walk etc so that the dog does not associate a recall with going on the lead and ending the walk or being put on the lead with the cessation of fun.
• Eventually, when the behaviour is very strong, alternate rewards ie verbal praise, physical praise, food, toy and also vary the “value” of the rewards, sometimes a plain piece of biscuit, sometimes a piece of cooked liver etc so that you become a walking slot machine (and we all know how addictive gambling can be)!
In my experience recall training should be consistent and relentless for the first two years of a dog’s life before it can be considered truly dependable. You should look on it as a series of incremental steps, rather than a single simple behaviour, and something that will require lifelong maintenance.
What about an older or rescue dog?
Follow the same programme as outlined above however for recalcitrant dogs that have received little or no training, I would recommend dispensing with the food bowl and feeding a dog only during recalls to establish a strong behaviour quickly.
Your training should be over several sessions a day, which means you can avoid the risk of bloat. It is essential that the dog learns that there will be consequences for failure as well as success.
Divide the day’s food ration up into small bags (between10 – 30), if the dog recalls first time, it gets food, if it does not, you can make a big show of saying “too bad” and disposing of that portion of food (either throw it away or put aside for the next day).
Again, raise the criteria slowly as outlined in puppy training.
Hunger is very motivating!
For those of you who believe it unfair/unhealthy to deprive a dog of its full daily ration, not having a reliable recall is potentially life threatening for the dog ……………
How do I stop my dog chasing joggers/cyclists/skateboarders/rabbits/deer?
Chasing something that is moving is a management issue. Do not put your dog in a position where it can make a mistake. Again you need to start training from a pup but if you have already allowed your dog to learn and practise this behaviour you may need to rely on a trailing line until your dog is desensitised to these distractions and knows that listening to you results in a great reinforcement. Chasing is a behaviour much better never learned as it is naturally reinforcing to the dog, which makes it hard for you to offer a better reinforcement. If you want to have a bombproof recall while your dog is running away from you then use the following approach:
Your goal is to train so that your dog is totally used to running away from you at top speed, and then turning on a sixpence to run toward you when you give the recall cue.
You need to set up the training situation so that you have total control over the triggers. For this you will need to gain the co-operation of a helper. If you have a toy crazy dog you can practice this exercise by throwing a toy away from the dog towards someone standing 30 or 40 feet away. At the instant the toy is thrown, recall your dog! If the dog turns toward you, back up several steps quickly, creating even more distance between the you and the toy and then throw another toy in the opposite direction (same value as one thrown)..
If the dog ignores you and continues toward the thrown object, your “helper” simply picks the ball up and ignores dog. When dog eventually returns (which it will because it’s getting no reinforcement from anyone or anything), praise only. Pretty soon the dog will start to respond to a recall off a thrown toy. You will need to mix in occasions the toy is thrown and the dog is allowed to get it ie you do NOT recall if you want to make sure it does not lose enthusiasm for retrieving.
For the food obsessed dog, you can get your helper to wave a food bowl with something the dog loves in it and then recall the dog as soon as you let it go to run towards the food; again if the dog ignores you and continues to the food, your helper simply ensures the dog cannot access the food and start again. (It is extremely important that the helper does not use your dog’s name to call it for obvious reasons).
Gradually increase the difficulty of the recall by letting the dog get closer and closer to the toy/food. Praise the moment the dog turns away from the toy/food in the early stages of training. Don't wait until the dog returns to you; the dog must have instant feedback.
Once the dog is fluent at switching directions in the middle of a chase, try setting up the situation so that it is more like real life. Have someone ride a bike/run/skate past. (It is unrealistic to factor in deer/rabbits however if your training is thorough the dog will eventually be conditioned to return to you whatever the temptation in most contexts).
Until your training gets to this level, don't let the dog off-lead in a situation in which you don't have control over the chase triggers. Don't set the dog up to fail, and don't allow it to rehearse the problem behaviour. Remember, every time a dog is able to practise an undesirable behaviour it will get better at it!
Most people do not play with toys correctly and therefore the dog is not interested in them or, if it gets them, fails to bring it back to the owner.
Play the two ball game, once you have a dog ball crazy. Have two balls the same, throw one to the left, when the dog gets it, call him like crazy waving the next ball; as he comes back throw the other ball to the right and keep going left right so that YOU are the centre of the game and the dog gets conditioned to return to you for the toy. Once this behaviour is established you can then introduce the cues for out and then make control part of the game ie the game is contingent on the dog sitting and then progress to a sequence of behaviours.
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Post by smokeybear on Apr 14, 2013 16:51:28 GMT
Courses How to Change Predatory Chase Behaviour in Dogs with David Ryan When: Sunday 12th May 2013 Where: Otterbourne Village Hall, Otterbourne, Winchester SO21 2ET Details: 10am- 4pm registration from 9.30am. £35 per person, lunch included (Unfortunately this course is now sold out) Books Line Training for Dogs By Monika Gutman Chase! Managing Your Dog's Predatory Instincts By Clarissa Von Reinhardt Stop! How to control predatory Chasing in Dogs by David Ryan Teach your Dog to Come When Called By Erica Peachey Total Recall By Pippa Mattinson Training your Dog to Come When Called By John Rogerson DVDs Line Training for Dogs By Monika Gutman Really Reliable Recall By Leslie Nelson Training the Recall By Michael Ellis Your clever dog: Getting your dog to come when called By Sarah Whitehead Does your dog whizz back to you as soon as you call his name? Can you call him to you even when there are other dogs or distractions? Teaching your dog to come to you when you call is the cornerstone of training and the gateway to allowing him more freedom in the park. If your dog has selective deafness, ignores you in the garden or the park, or would rather play with other dogs than come when you call, this specially designed training session is for you. Ideal for starting out with puppies or rehomed dogs, and also for dogs that ignore you or are slow to come when called, despite previous training. Including: • How to know what’s rewarding for your dog and what’s not • Five times when you shouldn’t call your dog! • Using your voice to call versus using a whistle • What to do if you call and your dog doesn’t come to you The pack contains: A clicker, long line (worth £10), training manual, instructional DVD: 55 mins approx running time including Bonus trick, Bonus Training Session, Intro to Clicker Training, Q & A with Sarah www.dogtrain.co.uk/shop/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=80&osCsid=elhrbh99gea40atbk7j4let2v3Website articles: How to use a long line properly here (under information to download) www.dogpsyche.co.uk/www.apdt.co.uk/content/files/training-tips/RECALL.pdfwww.deesdogs.com/documents/reliable_recall.pdfwww.clickerdogs.com/perfectrecall.htmwww.clickerdogs.com/listofreinforcers.htmwww.clickerdogs.com/distracti...yourrecall.htmsusangarrettdogagility.com/20...call-collapse/www.clickerdogs.com/createamotivatingtoy.htmwww.cleverdogcompany.com/tl_f...e%20recall.pdfahimsadogtraining.com/blog/teaching-come/www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-...y-dog-chasing/www.pawsitivelydogs.co.uk/recall.pdfdrsophiayin.com/blog/entry/come-at-the-parkdrsophiayin.com/blog/entry/te..._to_you_on_cuedrsophiayin.com/blog/entry/be...me-when-called |
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Post by smokeybear on Apr 14, 2013 16:56:03 GMT
Scentwork/Nosework ideas
Anne Lill Kvam The Canine Kingdom of Scent
Martina Nau Snooping Around
Roy Hunter Fun Nosework for Dogs
Pam McKinnon Talking Dogs Scentwork; The Manual
Carolyn A Krause Try Tracking
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Post by caz2golden on Apr 14, 2013 17:08:18 GMT
Sorry to hear you are considering rehoming.
I have felt the same with my youngest.
However, I only have to think of the hole she would leave if she was not about and what awful life she may end up having without me and then that microsecond thought of re-homing flies straight back out of mt head again.
I choose to have her and it is my responsibility to do the best for her while she is alive. At the end of the day she is a large part of my life and however bad she is I do love her!!
I have not gone to Bextulls links (sorry Bextull) so if I repeat something from the links I am sorry.
Totally agree with Bextull, you have to stop her failing, the more she does the more she knows she can.
Also I agree she is still in the young 'rebellious' age when she will be continually pushing the boundaries. Dig deep and she will come out the other end.
You are doing the right thing with using a long line.
I have found one invaluable when training my latest dog!
My Golden menace is now about 19 months old and she is significantly better but even now occasionally the halo slips and she is off!!
If you walk in open fields have you tried dropping long line and let her drag it?
You then only have to get within 15 ft of her and stand hard on the end and you have her back under control.
Do you go / have gone to dog training. Though basic it has helped me in general with my menace!! Lots of small things can help with the larger problem.
If your other dog has a lazy recall have you considered getting hers sharper. I have found having a second dog who is quite well behaved has helped the younger to be good.
Do you always walk dogs together? Could be worth considering occasional walks separately.
Do you let both dogs off at the same time?
I have found sometimes it is best to only let one off at a time. My youngest will not go as far away from me if she is off on her own and is often better behaved then.
You also need to learn your dogs body language to get in front of the moment that she might fail, its better to put her back on after a slightly sloppy recall then let her continue and then ignore you.
She is a very energetic breed and yes she does need ample exercise. Sometimes a 20-30 min session working their brains can tire them more than exercise. Does she get ample mental stimulation (feeding via kongs, interactive games, find it games, formal training, trick training etc).
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Post by caz2golden on Apr 14, 2013 17:13:18 GMT
Sorry SB, did not see your posts, I am a slow writer!! Amazing advice |
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Post by charlottte on Apr 17, 2013 18:28:38 GMT
The problem I see is "i cant get close to her and put her lead on"
If you've been trying to do this all the time with her then this could be an issue.
She will associate coming back with the lead and the end of the fun.
Bextull suggests very good advice. Collie Slave has also just recently proofed his collies recall so will have some good tips (sorry if you posted already CS!)
Use a long line to retrain her. Get a REALLY high value treat and reserve this ONLY for recall training.
Then with her on the long line get dead excited when you call her and when she comes then give her a good jackpot of treats and then say 'off you go then!' And let her toddle off to as far as the line lets her.
There's nothing less motivating than an owner saying 'Jasper come. Come Jasper. Jasper come here' in a boring voice then when they come back and get put straight back on the lead. I did this with my last dog and he had a nightmare recall! So I can empathise!
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Post by CollieSlave on Apr 17, 2013 18:50:51 GMT
I have not read in detail all the vast amount of advice being offered here - so, if I am duplicating, I apologize! First a REALLY good book on recall is 'Total Recall' by Pippa Mattinson (mentioned by Smokeybear in one of her posts) - I have this book and it is FIRST CLASS. I am a great believer in the use of Jackpot treats - something REALLY, REALLY good (I use trays of moist cat food - the smellier the better). These are NOT given on a regular basis - keep the dog guessing. While I get one today? Or perhaps even TWO? Or just ordinary boring treats? Miss out one or two days when you do not give a Jackpot, and give them at different places on the walk. The idea is that the dog knows it MIGHT (JUST MIGHT - Lottery style!) get a super treat next time he or she returns. That is the attraction - the gambling, unknown element (pretty much like wild dogs hunting - a kill is not certain, the thrill of the hope is great!).
And, of course, don't just call the dog back to clip on the lead. Put on the lead several times during a walk, treat, and then take it off again and give the dog more off-lead freedom - so the lead does not JUST mean the end of the walk; off home now.
HTH and I hope I have not repeated too much of what others have suggested!
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Post by CollieSlave on Apr 17, 2013 21:41:01 GMT
Further to my last post, you can, of course, introduce the Jackpot with the dog on a long line and/or over a short distance to get the idea implanted that the dog MAY get a really special reward! THE problem with recall is persuading the dog that coming to YOU is much more attractive/interesting/exciting than scoffing a putrid rabbit, rolling in fox poo, playing with other dogs, sniffing an interesting smell etc etc. And it is quite a challenge (as we all know). And using the recall, as so many do, only as a way of getting hold of the dog to clip the lead on to go home is asking for trouble and a royal way to demolish any inclination on the part of the dog to come back: this is common sense when you think about it.
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Post by BorderTerrier on Apr 24, 2013 18:40:03 GMT
You don't need to rehome her because her recall is terrible - you need to work on it like crazy and don't let her fail. Work around it! I think everyone has given great advice here, and I don;t want to repeat anything that has already been said.
There are so many books etc on how to help recall - you could even find yourself a behaviourist for her who could help you so your not alone in facing the dilema. There are plenty out there.
I really do apologize if I have repeated anything that has already been said!
I also think a long line is a sensible idea. It sounds like you didn't keep that idea up - stay with it, and don;t let her off until her recall on that is SPOT ON.
Hope this little piece of information helps you.
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Post by Avansa on Apr 25, 2013 14:02:45 GMT
Don't have time to read through all the responses properly (although they look great and really helpful) so as CollieSlave said, sorry if I'm repeating anything.
Yep, you've just hit the teenage period. Finn was a lovely little puppy with his recall - turned 1 and everything went out of the window. He's a Setter, so he pretty much just lives in his nose and follows every scent he finds. Team this with running after other dogs to play and you have a bit of a nightmare! You need to be extremely patient! I don't understand why you would be thinking of rehoming your dog because they (a teenage dog) don't have a good recall? I really hope that you don't go down that route...
Anyway, we recently bought a 15m long line too and it's a bit of a nightmare to use, but we're slowly getting used to it. Finn comes back every time he's called while on it - but that's the thing, while you're training the recall you CANNOT let your dog off of the lead! Using the long line 3 or 4 times won't make any difference at all. You need to be using it every time you go out or she will learn nothing.
Find a treat she really loves - it might not be something obvious - Finn loves toast.
What we're doing at the moment is trying to train Finn into "checking in" with us while out on walks. Every time he looks around at us while he's ahead, we click him and give him a treat and loads of praise. This really seems to be working at the moment and sometimes he's even happy just to trot along by us.
Good luck and PLEASE don't give up on her! She's a young dog and it's perfectly normal. Most people say that around 3, even some of the worst recall dogs calm down and listen to you a bit more.
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