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Post by scallywag on Apr 7, 2014 22:39:47 GMT
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Post by alfiemummy on Apr 7, 2014 22:42:58 GMT
 scallywag that made me laugh so much LOL I will take a picture of Alfie and his many tennis balls for you 
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Post by Pawsforthought on Apr 8, 2014 18:25:32 GMT
Ok, I think I MAY be able to help you  Maybe... Milo had mega problems with possessiveness. It could be anything, if he got worked up and was chewing something he knew he shouldn't have, he'd stand over it and look up at you with his mouth on or near it. If you came near, he'd growl and if you tried to get it I'm certain he'd have snapped! Sticks were a huge problem, and still are on walks unfortunately (Avansa's dad walks him so we can't work on that really, but it's manageable, I'll get into how later.) Another thing he used to do is go and get a shoe and guard it. He'd turn into Mr Hyde and you'd not be able to go anywhere near him or it. Then, one day, instead of saying "leave it" or shouting or telling him off, I started playing with him. I made all kinds of silly squeaky noises and "forced" him to start playing (by that I mean manhandled him a little and ignoring his growls, saying things like "what you got?" and "get it!" so basically ENCOURAGING him to get the shoe, which I think completely threw him.) He started playing tug with me with the item in question, which was the next big step and meant I could get my hands on his desirable item without being growled at - great! THEN, I started saying "Could you give for a treatie?" and at first it would take ages of "stand off" until he'd let go, then he'd get an AMAZING treat (we have Fish4Dogs fish skins, big ones) He started doing it TO GET a treat, rather frustrating but meant he'd give up the shoe immediately. We've now got it to the point where it's about once a day or less he'll get a shoe but he will ALWAYS let me get it and he'll then give it up for a treat. He used to guard his 'outdoor' toys if they were inside and growl at Finn. What I did with the shoes, I did with those toys, and again he will now let me get them and will then give them up for a treat. Now, I said I'd explain about sticks and here it is. If you carry a toy he loves (he is VERY toy oriented) on a walk without him knowing you have it, if he then goes to get a stick, giving him his toy instead is a good swap and he will drop the stick in favour of a toy Reading your post, it sounds to me as if Alfie associates unpleasantness with getting tennis balls. I imagine that came about as he started to get more fixated on his tennis balls and got negative reactions as a result. I would personally start playing with tennis balls with him, but at first maybe don't let go of it? Encourage him to play and show him that playing with a tennis ball with you is fun and that he'll NEVER receive negative energy when a tennis ball is present. This was the single most important thing for Milo, telling him off made him considerably worse. Try what worked for Milo, pretend you don't know he's guarding and play with him! Be fun and loud and silly and wave your arms about like a loon! The first few times Milo was like "What the-?" but now he knows if I come near him with an item, I will always play with him (and hold my breath in the hope my shoes don't rip!) before giving him a mega treat followed by play with an appropriate toy, it's all positive! This all has to start in the house though, and if you could work with him enough to be able to take tennis balls away both inside and then out, you could probably use the magic of tennis balls to swap for things out on walks? HTH, obviously every dog is different but this turned Milo from a snarling Hyde to his playful puppy true self all it took was recognising he has a lot of nervous energy made worse by telling him off! |
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Post by Pawsforthought on Apr 8, 2014 18:30:22 GMT
Forgot to say this, and it may also be helpful
When I ask him to give something he really wants I NEVER say it sternly, and I never simply say "give." It may sound contrary to what a lot of trainers would tell you, but he knows he's in trouble if he's being asked to "give."
When I say "can you," I always say a command afterwards, it prepares the dogs for a command and makes them more likely to do what I ask. I say "can you heel?" to Finn and it works better than heel alone.
And when I say "can you give for a treatie?" I say it like "can you GIVE for a TREATIE?" so those all important words stand out and it's nice and clear, but also in a very high, upbeat tone!
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Post by alfiemummy on Apr 8, 2014 19:23:17 GMT
Thanks so much for your suggestions Pawsforthought! I had never thought of playing with the thing he's guarding before. I actually use that technique when I buy and give him a new toy! He always runs off with it as if it's something to be guarded so there is a few hours where it isn't a toy to him, but I will keep playing and ignore all the growling and such. After that, he treats it as a toy and pretty much ignores it unless he is playful. I never thought to do the same for his possessive behaviour with other items but it makes so much sense! Reading your post, it sounds to me as if Alfie associates unpleasantness with getting tennis balls. I imagine that came about as he started to get more fixated on his tennis balls and got negative reactions as a result. I would personally start playing with tennis balls with him, but at first maybe don't let go of it? Encourage him to play and show him that playing with a tennis ball with you is fun and that he'll NEVER receive negative energy when a tennis ball is present. This was the single most important thing for Milo, telling him off made him considerably worse. I think the real problem is that he just loves them SO MUCH. I have tried to introduce them like a normal toy but his behaviour is completely different, he has a crazed look about him that doesn't go away the whole time the ball is there. If I show him the ball but don't let go he gets into crazy barking and mouthing my hand trying to get at it, nothing will calm him. With any other toy he is very patient and will wait for me to say he can have it - no mouthing or barking at all, very calm. I have tried to play with them with him but as soon as he gets it in his mouth without me attached he will run away as fast as he can. I have never told him off around tennis balls as they are not one of those items that he 'shouldn't have' so they are not a concern. When he has had them I have only ever played with them. |
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Post by alfiemummy on Apr 8, 2014 19:27:45 GMT
Forgot to say this, and it may also be helpful When I ask him to give something he really wants I NEVER say it sternly, and I never simply say "give." It may sound contrary to what a lot of trainers would tell you, but he knows he's in trouble if he's being asked to "give." When I say "can you," I always say a command afterwards, it prepares the dogs for a command and makes them more likely to do what I ask. I say "can you heel?" to Finn and it works better than heel alone. And when I say "can you give for a treatie?" I say it like "can you GIVE for a TREATIE?" so those all important words stand out and it's nice and clear, but also in a very high, upbeat tone! I will definitely try this too! He certainly needs to learn a new command anyway. His current command is 'drop it' but he has started to ignore this, if anything it is making him hang on tighter (depending what it is and if you have a treat). You sometimes actually have a better chance of getting it from him without saying anything at all as once you have said 'drop it' he knows exactly what you're trying to do and there's no way he will be doing it! |
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Post by charlottte on Apr 8, 2014 21:23:20 GMT
Jean Donaldsons book Mine! is good for resource guarding
I wouldn't be trying to take a ball (or anything) from a guarders mouth if possible as that will make the guarding worse
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Post by alfiemummy on Apr 8, 2014 21:35:44 GMT
charlottte thanks for the book recommendation, it looks interesting so I will probably get a copy! I try not take anything from his mouth unless it is actually dangerous
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Post by Pawsforthought on Apr 9, 2014 18:30:37 GMT
Forgot to say this, and it may also be helpful When I ask him to give something he really wants I NEVER say it sternly, and I never simply say "give." It may sound contrary to what a lot of trainers would tell you, but he knows he's in trouble if he's being asked to "give." When I say "can you," I always say a command afterwards, it prepares the dogs for a command and makes them more likely to do what I ask. I say "can you heel?" to Finn and it works better than heel alone. And when I say "can you give for a treatie?" I say it like "can you GIVE for a TREATIE?" so those all important words stand out and it's nice and clear, but also in a very high, upbeat tone! I will definitely try this too! He certainly needs to learn a new command anyway. His current command is 'drop it' but he has started to ignore this, if anything it is making him hang on tighter (depending what it is and if you have a treat). You sometimes actually have a better chance of getting it from him without saying anything at all as once you have said 'drop it' he knows exactly what you're trying to do and there's no way he will be doing it! That's exactly like Milo with regards to if you say the phrase he knows what you want and is worse! With regards to balls (lol, sorry,) have you tried having one in your hand for a couple of minutes and just sitting and holding it so it's "yours" and putting it away the minute he starts to bark? Or any other calming way of dealing with it? Kind of like ball desensitisation, so they're around often and he doesn't get to play with them? |
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Post by alfiemummy on Apr 9, 2014 18:36:34 GMT
I haven't tried that Pawsforthought but I'm not sure how well it would work. As soon as he sees one he is jumping all over me and mouthing my hand trying to get it. If he can't get to it then he deafens you with his constant barking. If you put it away he tries to get it from where ever you put it, barking the whole time. But anything is worth a try! I was going to try getting all of them out at once and just leaving them all over the house. Surely if there are about 20 odd balls about he will soon get bored? |
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Post by zahada on Apr 11, 2014 10:35:08 GMT
That's what I had in mind. Alfie can guard one ball but not 20. So how does he choose which one to guard? Or will he accept that guarding is no longer necessary? |
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Post by zahada on Apr 11, 2014 10:39:05 GMT
charlottte thanks for the book recommendation, it looks interesting so I will probably get a copy! I try not take anything from his mouth unless it is actually dangerous That may be the problem - Alfie has not been trained to release anything from his mouth when you ask him to. Never too late to teach him that. |
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Post by charlottte on Apr 11, 2014 12:18:47 GMT
I'm not saying it's ever too late to teach but I wouldn't want to take a ball from his mouth if it isn't causing a threat as it will just make matters worse.
I'd be looking at teaching 'drop/give' as well as a solid 'leave'. Takes time but better than prizing stuff from his mouth where possible.
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Post by Pawsforthought on Apr 11, 2014 12:39:53 GMT
Might be worth a try! Might just end up winding him up though lmao!
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Post by alfiemummy on Apr 11, 2014 14:10:14 GMT
charlottte thanks for the book recommendation, it looks interesting so I will probably get a copy! I try not take anything from his mouth unless it is actually dangerous That may be the problem - Alfie has not been trained to release anything from his mouth when you ask him to. Never too late to teach him that. He does know a 'drop it' command but he will only do it if it's something he doesn't consider to be that great, or if you have a treat. So it is not solid. Perhaps I should work on that. |
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Aug 11, 2024 20:01:15 GMT
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