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Post by orpheous87 on Jun 12, 2016 19:01:12 GMT
Out of our three dogs, Pepper poses us the most problems. One of the biggest issues we have with her is the fact she will not do as she's asked sometimes (not every time). At mealtimes, we crate the dogs. This is because if we don't, Ellie will sit with her nose practically on someone's plate, or she'll wander between everyone (we eat on trays in the living room), which inevitably annoys everyone and she gets shouted at, although it doesn't stop her. So, our way of managing the problem is to crate ALL the dogs as if one is left out, the others will whinge (whoever thought 3 dogs was a good idea?!).
When it's announced that tea is ready, often Cody will run straight to his crate without being prompted. I always call out "Beds, dogs!" and that sends Ellie off to her crate with no issues. Pepper, on the other hand, will lie wherever she is, be that sofa or dog bed and will not move no matter how much she's called. I tend to get her moving by clicking my fingers and pointing, but if I move towards her, she gives an awful growl and will bark at me (or whoever) while she runs to her crate.
She will also do this at bedtime, but again, Ellie and Cody go with no fuss. On a night, I tend to go to bed last and Pepper will stay up with me so to avoid her barking late on, I have taken to throwing a treat on the floor and leaving the room. She will then get off the chair or bed to get the treat and it's a bit easier, but sometimes even then she won't leave the room.
Short of bribing her, I'm running out of ideas. I have, in the past, wondered if it could all be linked to her hips being bad. But I'm not sure on this. She's been checked multiple times by the vets and no underlying issues have been picked up. She will be having a zoopharmacognosy session at the beginning of July which I'm hoping might help a bit. But obviously I'm not expecting a miracle. Has anyone else got any advice on how to stop her from being such a grump?
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Post by bextull on Jun 12, 2016 19:48:40 GMT
I'd consider it a mixture of both stubbornness and aggression.
Possessive aggression isn't really the best word to use and dominance/status doesn't quite suit it either but if you look at it from Peppers perspective it makes sense. She's being told to give up her spot, which in her mind is of high value and move to a less desirable place.
It's almost like asking a dog to give up a bone, except in this case its the chair or her bed or wherever she happens to be lying.
And then stubbornness just makes everything more difficult.
There are things you could try but I don't know how suitable they'll be given that there's 3 dogs in the house. If it were Oscar, he'd have his privileges taken away - so no sitting on furniture and stuff like that coupled with training to reinforce rules and learned commands etc. Then after a little while, let him have some of the privileges back bit by bit.
But all that's easier said than done (and with 2 other dogs strolling around the place, its much much easier said than done!)
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Post by scallywag on Jun 12, 2016 20:13:06 GMT
orpheous87 has Pepper been taking lessons from Beau OR has Beau been taking lessons from Pepper ? Beau does the growling and barking, even if I ask him to move over well he sounds so aggressive. Tobi on the other hand when I wanted to straighten / make the bed all I had to say was "over" and he would move to the top of the bed, allow me to straighten the bottom, I say over again and he would move to the bottom and I sorted the top. Beau the little sod even the mention or moving of the bed covers , he sounds quite aggressive. I walk away, I have to, there is just no point encouraging that behaviour so I avoid it till I can go back and make the bed, usually as you say, by chucking a treat onto the floor. Temperament wise Beau has been the most arrogant and single minded of the 3 springer's we have had. So you are not alone
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Post by orpheous87 on Jun 12, 2016 20:19:42 GMT
Agreed! It wouldn't be completely impossible to stop her from getting on the settee, but given that she acts the same way when she's on the dog bed, it would seem pointless. The dog bed is currently a memory foam dog bed that we've just bought but it's definitely not just because of that. She would act the same when she was in the old dog bed too, which was just a regular bed. The memory foam bed was bought specifically for her benefit too, so I don't want to stop her having access to it! And considering if we're home during the day and the crates are left open, she will often CHOOSE to go and lie in hers, which makes it even more baffling that she is unwilling when it comes to bedtime/meal time. She has a Tuffies bed in her crate, so it's not just a rubbish bed in there either.
We could, in theory, stop all of the dogs having access to the settee etc., but I know that if we do that with Ellie, she won't always settle anywhere else. I can't say that she'll never settle anywhere else, because she's currently laid on the floor under my feet. But a lot of the time, if she can't get on the settee, she'll just pace around. This is probably our fault for always giving her access to the furniture, but at the same time, she really isn't a problem if we ask her to get down or move over.
I'm thinking that I may have to do some "on/off" training with her to see if that helps with the issue.
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Post by orpheous87 on Jun 12, 2016 20:25:18 GMT
orpheous87 has Pepper been taking lessons from Beau OR has Beau been taking lessons from Pepper ? Beau does the growling and barking, even if I ask him to move over well he sounds so aggressive. Tobi on the other hand when I wanted to straighten / make the bed all I had to say was "over" and he would move to the top of the bed, allow me to straighten the bottom, I say over again and he would move to the bottom and I sorted the top. Beau the little sod even the mention or moving of the bed covers , he sounds quite aggressive. I walk away, I have to, there is just no point encouraging that behaviour so I avoid it till I can go back and make the bed, usually as you say, by chucking a treat onto the floor. Temperament wise Beau has been the most arrogant and single minded of the 3 springer's we have had. So you are not alone Good to know (sort of) scallywag! As I say, at first I thought it may all be linked to her hips and her thinking that the other dogs might hurt her (as she also barks at them if they're next to her on the settee and they jump down) but she has been getting progressively worse lately. Which, given her recent hip problems, could also be linked I suppose. Pepper is definitely the most stubborn dog we've had. She will often completely ignore us, not even acknowledging us at all. She'll sit with my dad and he'll say her name but she doesn't even look in his direction the slightest bit. Yet, if we say the word 'pigeon', her head snaps round immediately.
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Post by bectil on Jun 12, 2016 20:43:38 GMT
orpheous87 has Pepper been taking lessons from Beau OR has Beau been taking lessons from Pepper ? Beau does the growling and barking, even if I ask him to move over well he sounds so aggressive. Tobi on the other hand when I wanted to straighten / make the bed all I had to say was "over" and he would move to the top of the bed, allow me to straighten the bottom, I say over again and he would move to the bottom and I sorted the top. Beau the little sod even the mention or moving of the bed covers , he sounds quite aggressive. I walk away, I have to, there is just no point encouraging that behaviour so I avoid it till I can go back and make the bed, usually as you say, by chucking a treat onto the floor. Temperament wise Beau has been the most arrogant and single minded of the 3 springer's we have had. So you are not alone Good to know (sort of) scallywag ! As I say, at first I thought it may all be linked to her hips and her thinking that the other dogs might hurt her (as she also barks at them if they're next to her on the settee and they jump down) but she has been getting progressively worse lately. Which, given her recent hip problems, could also be linked I suppose. Pepper is definitely the most stubborn dog we've had. She will often completely ignore us, not even acknowledging us at all. She'll sit with my dad and he'll say her name but she doesn't even look in his direction the slightest bit. Yet, if we say the word 'pigeon', her head snaps round immediately. Perfect example of selective hearing! Do you have the same routine every time you put the dogs in their crates at night? Assuming you put them in their crates when you're out too, is Pepper the same then?
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Post by scallywag on Jun 12, 2016 20:44:08 GMT
I don't know how to change it either hes going on 9 now and Im of the opinion to know when its going to happen and avoid the conflict LOL others may think differently but no point my trying to change him now NOT when the O.H wont sing from the same song sheet
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Post by bextull on Jun 12, 2016 20:56:16 GMT
Agreed! It wouldn't be completely impossible to stop her from getting on the settee, but given that she acts the same way when she's on the dog bed, it would seem pointless. The dog bed is currently a memory foam dog bed that we've just bought but it's definitely not just because of that. She would act the same when she was in the old dog bed too, which was just a regular bed. The memory foam bed was bought specifically for her benefit too, so I don't want to stop her having access to it! And considering if we're home during the day and the crates are left open, she will often CHOOSE to go and lie in hers, which makes it even more baffling that she is unwilling when it comes to bedtime/meal time. She has a Tuffies bed in her crate, so it's not just a rubbish bed in there either. The difference here though is that she did chose to go into the crate. It's very different when she's told that she has to go into it when she doesn't want to be in it.
Using myself as an example of this - Walking Oscar is usually something that has quite a high "value" for me. It's rewarding, I enjoy it and so on. And I always intend on walking Oscar at a certain point in the day. However, if my dad comes up to me and asks or tells me to walk Oscar, immediately I don't want to do it. Even though I do it on my own accord every day, as soon as I'm told that I have to do it then it's not as appealing and I'll be quite annoyed about it.
Could be her hips as you say, but I'd be leaning more towards possession/status aggression. Her way of telling the others that she doesn't want them next to her because it's her settee. And they get down because they're the more submissive dogs and reinforce her aggression.
In this case I'm not saying you should do anything to stop her telling the other dogs to get down. In every household each dog has a relationship with every other dog (it's not as simple as one dominant dog in the house) and if there isn't a serious issue then you shouldn't try to mess with it.
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Post by orpheous87 on Jun 12, 2016 21:02:11 GMT
Oh she definitely has selective hearing bectil! Absolute nightmare, haha. Yes, the routine is almost always the same. My mam and dad will go to bed around 11pm. Ellie is usually on the settee until my mam moves, then she jumps down and goes to her crate. Pepper then jumps up on the settee with me until I go to bed an hour or so later. When we're going out she's usually fine, actually. Not sure of the difference. But if we say we're going to work, or shopping, she's happy enough to get in her crate without a fuss. scallywag I'd do the same as you I think. There's no point one of you doing one thing and the other doing something different because it'll just confuse the dog. That's what I find hard. I'll do (or say) something with the dogs one way, and it'll work, but despite everyone else seeing this, they'll still do something completely different!
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Post by orpheous87 on Jun 12, 2016 21:08:33 GMT
The difference here though is that she did chose to go into the crate. It's very different when she's told that she has to go into it when she doesn't want to be in it.
Using myself as an example of this - Walking Oscar is usually something that has quite a high "value" for me. It's rewarding, I enjoy it and so on. And I always intend on walking Oscar at a certain point in the day. However, if my dad comes up to me and asks or tells me to walk Oscar, immediately I don't want to do it. Even though I do it on my own accord every day, as soon as I'm told that I have to do it then it's not as appealing and I'll be quite annoyed about it.
Could be her hips as you say, but I'd be leaning more towards possession/status aggression. Her way of telling the others that she doesn't want them next to her because it's her settee. And they get down because they're the more submissive dogs and reinforce her aggression.
In this case I'm not saying you should do anything to stop her telling the other dogs to get down. In every household each dog has a relationship with every other dog (it's not as simple as one dominant dog in the house) and if there isn't a serious issue then you shouldn't try to mess with it.
That is very true - that thought occurred to me immediately after I clicked post. And I'm the same as you when it comes to walking the dogs - I don't mind doing it at all. But my mam asked me to go and walk my grandma's dog this evening and I definitely didn't want to do it! Silly really, but I get what you're saying. Sorry, I wasn't clear enough there. She doesn't bark at them to get down. She barks when they get down. Often, Ellie will get a bit warm when she's laid in between me and Pepper, so she jumps down to find a cooler spot and it's when she stands up that Pepper will have a go at her. Which is why I was thinking it could be to do with her hips. If she's telling one of the other dogs off I don't tend to tell her off, unless the dog hasn't actually done anything to her i.e. she could be laid on the dog bed in the corner of the room (behind an armchair) and Ellie could be laid on the settee. She will still bark at Ellie if Ellie jumps off the settee. It's an odd situation.
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Post by bectil on Jun 12, 2016 21:22:39 GMT
Oh she definitely has selective hearing bectil ! Absolute nightmare, haha. Yes, the routine is almost always the same. My mam and dad will go to bed around 11pm. Ellie is usually on the settee until my mam moves, then she jumps down and goes to her crate. Pepper then jumps up on the settee with me until I go to bed an hour or so later. When we're going out she's usually fine, actually. Not sure of the difference. But if we say we're going to work, or shopping, she's happy enough to get in her crate without a fuss. scallywag I'd do the same as you I think. There's no point one of you doing one thing and the other doing something different because it'll just confuse the dog. That's what I find hard. I'll do (or say) something with the dogs one way, and it'll work, but despite everyone else seeing this, they'll still do something completely different! I would try breaking the routine. Perhaps she should go in her crate at the same time as Ellie and Cody does?
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Post by orpheous87 on Jun 12, 2016 21:31:08 GMT
Oh she definitely has selective hearing bectil ! Absolute nightmare, haha. Yes, the routine is almost always the same. My mam and dad will go to bed around 11pm. Ellie is usually on the settee until my mam moves, then she jumps down and goes to her crate. Pepper then jumps up on the settee with me until I go to bed an hour or so later. When we're going out she's usually fine, actually. Not sure of the difference. But if we say we're going to work, or shopping, she's happy enough to get in her crate without a fuss. scallywag I'd do the same as you I think. There's no point one of you doing one thing and the other doing something different because it'll just confuse the dog. That's what I find hard. I'll do (or say) something with the dogs one way, and it'll work, but despite everyone else seeing this, they'll still do something completely different! I would try breaking the routine. Perhaps she should go in her crate at the same time as Ellie and Cody does? We can try that, but that's what we do at meal times and she's just as bad then so not sure it'll work!
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Post by bectil on Jun 12, 2016 21:36:14 GMT
I would try breaking the routine. Perhaps she should go in her crate at the same time as Ellie and Cody does? We can try that, but that's what we do at meal times and she's just as bad then so not sure it'll work! Or even a different routine like, as soon as your parents leave the room, let the dogs out to the loo, ask them to go into their crates and then give them a treat? Anything to distract her from getting onto the sofa I think!
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Post by orpheous87 on Jun 12, 2016 22:00:33 GMT
That could be worth a go, yeah. We definitely need to do something because it's getting worse and we don't want to encourage any aggression of course.
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Post by bectil on Jun 13, 2016 6:44:55 GMT
I've been thinking about this, are you able to discourage her from getting onto the sofa at certain times? Like an hour before tea and bed and then remove her bed so she can not go on that either. Remove any prized possessions. She might be more willing to go in her create or she might even take her self off to her crate.
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