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Post by ziggy on May 25, 2015 10:41:43 GMT
Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum and would really appreciate your advice!
I have a 2-year-old male border collie, who is fantastic in every way - apart from pulling on the lead. A dog trainer recommended using a Dogmatic head collar and lead and advised to stick with it throughout any objections, as it would be like a child having a tantrum - he would get used to it.
We've been using it for about 5 weeks now, and he has it on 3 or 4 times a day when he sets off for his walk. He still absolutely hates it, squealing, twisting in the air and pawing at it - every day it's as if it's the first time he's worn it. Our walks in public are absolute misery with people stopping to stare in horror and telling me he needs training. (We've been going to regular training since he was a pup.) When we get to open fields and the head collar comes off, he has a lovely time racing around and playing ball - he gets plenty of exercise.
Before this we tried reward-based training without the head collar, leading him back to the start and turning back every time he pulled - but he didn't learn from this at all and stil pulled till he choked, so I'm determined to try and persist with the head collar.
Does anyone have any advice please - or a success story with a similarly determined border collie that would give me a glimmer of hope?! Thank you.
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Post by scallywag on May 25, 2015 11:29:14 GMT
Hi ziggy welcome to the forum. Im mum to a very lively Springer, when I got him at 13 months he was a nightmare to walk, I eventually started walking him on his car harness where he could be walked from the middle of his back, it soon sorted out the pulling and eventually moved him onto a regular lead. Hope you can find what suits you, persevere best you can, someone else will be along to post, think there are other threads on here about dogs pulling, recently too, maybe have a read Ziggy looks lovely, is thats him on your avatar ?
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Post by caz2golden on May 25, 2015 12:02:08 GMT
Here's my advice for what its worth! That is as long as you want to persist with the head collar.
1. Stop walking him on it for now!! He needs to associate the head collar with good things!! At the moment sounds like it is something he is not comfortable with. 2. At home put head collar on with no lead attached. Treat when he is good. 3. Allow him to wander around house with it on, when he goes to rub his face, call him (to distract from the rubbing) and treat him for not rubbing at it. 4. Next throw a soft toy (a ball is probably too big)that he is able to pick up with head collar on and again praise when he plays and ignores head collar. 5. Next add lead on in house and let him drag it about, this will actually put pressure on the head collar by small amount and repeat 3 and 4 6. Now go for a walk with it on. Try and reward base i.e when he is walking well treat him as you walk. You might find he will put up with it for so long and then start playing up, at that point may be worth leaving head collar on and just walking on collar and then return to head collar when you can. I had to build up the length of time head collar was used on a walk, so I would start with it on but maybe go back to collar 1/2 way through walk.
Hopefully he will be less concerned about the pressure on his face and will listen to you. However the head collar is still just a tool to train the behavior you want and not a instant cure. You still need to train the good walking behavior with it on. If you continue to let him pull on the head collar he will build his neck muscles up and just end up pulling on that too (this is what my mums first dog was able to do)
My two are walked on head collars when I go places they might pull a lot i.e going to beach or road walks when they might spot a cat!!
They are otherwise walked on a harness. Mine walk quite well on the harnesses however the head collar as such helped with the 'how to behave on lead' thing prior to harnesses being used. A harness is seen as the best way to walk your dog.
HTH
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Post by bextull on May 25, 2015 13:47:32 GMT
Headcollars are all well and good but they are only tools that help you MANAGE the pulling, not solve it. I used a headcollar for a while with my own dog but quickly dumped it in exchange for a good harness. I'm not totally against headcollars, certainly if they are used correctly (and in conjunction with proper training) then they can be a lifeline for some people, but I've seen far too many dogs wearing headcollars who have their heads twisted in awkward positions, yanked backwards and forwards by owners trying to "train" them to either keep up or slow down and occasionally being held on a very tight lead to look as if they are "heeling". For now, as caz has suggest, STOP using the headcollar on walks. While this video doesn't mention headcollars, the techniques can still be applied to what you want to achieve, Ideally you want your dog putting his nose into the headcollar, not you putting it on him. Have a look at the trainers youtube channel (I love her videos and methods so much) too, she's got a video or 2 on pulling and also how to use a clicker or marker word if you don't already use one (I do and I think they're wonderful tools). I'd also recommend a good harness as I do believe that ALL dogs should be walked on a harness, not on a collar or a slip lead or basically anything that goes around its neck, but also because if you use a headcollar in conjunction with a harness and proper training, you might find it much easier to manage the pulling. You will need a double ended training lead for this. The harness-headcollar combination will allow you to control your dog more easilly as you'll have 2 points of control. By using a harness you can avoid putting all the pressure on your dogs neck and head. If your dog spots something and decides he wants to chase after it, rather than the dog getting to the end of the lead and having it's head snapped around to you and probably causing a lot of damage to it's neck, you can stop it with the harness and then guide it back to you. I dislike the "non-pull" harnesses and think they should be avoided - so the ones that tighten around your dog or have very thin webbing. I'd recommend a good fleece lined Y style harness that doest restrict shoulder movement and doesn't rub. Some people like to have a D ring at the front of the harness as it gives you more leverage with a pulling dog. A harness like this is ideal - www.dog-games-shop.co.uk/ Or one like this - www.mekuti.co.uk/harness_shop.htmAnd the last thing I have to say is that instead or stopping every time your dog pulls and leading him back to you, try being unpredictable. A lot of the time dogs pull because they want to get somewhere, or because they know where you're going but if you start stopping at random times, speeding up and slowing dog, turning left and right or stopping and walking in the complete opposite direction for a while then usually they start to slow down and pay a bit more attention to you. If they dont then they tend to get stepped on (now, I am NOT saying that you should walk on your dog ). And if they are paying more attention, give them a treat or let them have a sniff. Bit of a long post I'm afraid but I find it hard to stop myself once I get going. Lovely dog btw!
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Post by scallywag on May 25, 2015 14:20:41 GMT
Heres another thread about pulling Here
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Post by CollieSlave on May 25, 2015 14:55:15 GMT
Hi ziggy. We have a BC, called Bryn, who is a rescue dog. His first two years were spent locked in a small yard with NO walks whatsoever. Consequently, when he discovered Walks, with us, he was very enthusiastic - and a right pain with his pulling! We were lucky, in that he accepted the Dogmatic after initial struggles, but dogs DO find them scary (as you know!). bextull gives some really good advice, and I would agree with her suggestions of a fleece harness from Dog Games - Bryn always walks on one of these and they are very well made and last for ages, even with abuse! bextull also suggests the Mekuti - we used one of these, in fact still do on occasions, and they work very well to inhibit pulling with their two points of attachment for the lead (they come with full, detailed guidance on their use). I would highly recommend the Mekuti. Another point that bextull makes that I would thoroughly endorse is to be unpredictable: walks on a route the dog know well can easily make matters worse with pulling. The dog knows where he/she is going and that Exciting and Fun things will happen and he/she wants to get there as quickly as possible!!! Training a dog not to pull is not easy (despite what some trainers or writers of training books would have you believe!), takes a long time and will try your patience from time to time (!), but it is training that is needed, not just prevention and devices like the Dogmatic, Halti and other similar devices only prevent, and do not train. Good luck!
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Post by ziggy on May 25, 2015 15:02:33 GMT
Hello again - thank you so much for your replies! What a lovely welcome. Your tips are very helpful - I shall try them, and I also like the look of the Mekuti harness.
And yes, scallywag, that is Ziggy on my avatar - looking ever so innocent!
Thanks everyone, I'll report on our progress.
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Post by CollieSlave on May 25, 2015 15:17:24 GMT
Hello again - thank you so much for your replies! What a lovely welcome. Your tips are very helpful - I shall try them, and I also like the look of the Mekuti harness.
And yes, scallywag, that is Ziggy on my avatar - looking ever so innocent! Thanks everyone, I'll report on our progress. And hello again from me! The Mekuti, we found, goes a long way towards training the dog not to pull - it is not just a device for preventing pulling. The dog is not aware of the Mekuti for much of the time - and one of the great causes of pulling is, of course, that the dog has something to pull against (invariably the knackered owner!).
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Post by bectil on May 25, 2015 17:52:42 GMT
Welcome to the forum ziggy! Your Collie looks lovely I made a thread a little while ago about the Dogmatic head collar. I mentioned how I introduced it to my Whippet X Staffy (he doesn't look that strong, but goodness he is!), like I start off putting the head collar on him for a couple of mins a day, and then each day gradually leaving it on longer. Also charlottte posted a useful video which is worth watching! Goodluck and don't give up! Once Ziggy is happy with the head collar, your walks will be enjoyable!
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 21:29:37 GMT
A friend of mine took on a 9-month old Labrador about three years ago and he had never been trained and crikey, could this boy pull!!!!! He dislocated her wrist in the first six weeks and so I took him out for three weeks and TBH it wasn't fun...I'd forgotten the 'joys' of blisters on my palms!!! He was fabulous in every way except for the excessive pulling. We eventually, me and his owner, ended up in Pets @ Home in the MetroCentre in Gateshead and they recommended a harness *see below* Well, no word of a lie Blackie IMMEDIATELY stopped pulling as we walked him around the store to test the harness and even on a test run outside he was fine - it was like a miracle!!! For the next couple of days he would start off on a walk really excited and raring to go but would settle and not pull within yards and within days it was as though he had never been a puller! Within a fortnight Julie could walk him normally down the street with the lead in one hand instead of gripped for dear life in two and now he is an absolute joy to the whole family.....whereas before he was in serious danger of going back to the shelter as being too lively and out of control
I've recommended this harness to a few people since then and all have given good feedback
www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/dog-harnesses/non-pull-harness-medium-%28online-only%29?pageSize=68&orderBy=1
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Post by bextull on May 25, 2015 22:02:48 GMT
A friend of mine took on a 9-month old Labrador about three years ago and he had never been trained and crikey, could this boy pull!!!!! He dislocated her wrist in the first six weeks and so I took him out for three weeks and TBH it wasn't fun...I'd forgotten the 'joys' of blisters on my palms!!! He was fabulous in every way except for the excessive pulling. We eventually, me and his owner, ended up in Pets @ Home in the MetroCentre in Gateshead and they recommended a harness *see below* Well, no word of a lie Blackie IMMEDIATELY stopped pulling as we walked him around the store to test the harness and even on a test run outside he was fine - it was like a miracle!!! For the next couple of days he would start off on a walk really excited and raring to go but would settle and not pull within yards and within days it was as though he had never been a puller! Within a fortnight Julie could walk him normally down the street with the lead in one hand instead of gripped for dear life in two and now he is an absolute joy to the whole family.....whereas before he was in serious danger of going back to the shelter as being too lively and out of control
I've recommended this harness to a few people since then and all have given good feedback
www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/dog-harnesses/non-pull-harness-medium-%28online-only%29?pageSize=68&orderBy=1 Not trying to erase what has been said but the above harness is exactly the kind that I would avoid. The harness is designed to tighten around your dog when they pull and as the harness (this one in particular) sits very close to your dogs armpits, it is VERY uncomfortable for the dog. To make matters worse the strap (if you could call it that) that clips around your dogs girth is like a nylon rope and while it does have sleeve on the girth, these tend to twist and slip down the straps meaning that the strap digs right into the dogs skin. It would be like if somebody put a rope across your chest and under your arms and this rope got tighter and tighter the more you pulled, it wouldn't be very nice. And I think you'd learn very quickly not to pull. Any dog I've seen with this harness on has always had terrible red marks behind their front legs as a result of the harness but still it didn't stop the pulling. ETA, I train dogs at work and I've had a few dogs arrive with these harnesses. It is 1st hand info, not stuff I've read online (although I have read a bit online too )
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Post by CollieSlave on May 26, 2015 9:09:36 GMT
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Post by chantel on May 26, 2015 12:05:26 GMT
Hi and welcome to the forum i have a 2 year old rough collie whom pulls like crazy. I am doing clicker training at the moment and it is working wonders.I'm not one for the head collars plus Riley has a harness due to the pulling on his neck.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 13:25:49 GMT
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Post by orpheous87 on May 26, 2015 19:11:16 GMT
Welcome to the forum ziggy I found that front leading harnesses worked to stop my two pulling, but you do need a good one. bextull What are your thoughts on the Halti harness? www.amazon.co.uk/HALTI-HARNESS-BLACK-RED-Medium/dp/B004W78GGC/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_topIt's got very good reviews and is recommended by Karen Wild to help train dogs not to pull. I will stress that I haven't used one of these on my dogs (we have a Perfect Fit harness and a Ruffwear Front Range harness), but I have advised my cousin to get one for her Shar Pei pup as he's a huge puller.
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