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Post by orpheous87 on Apr 19, 2015 22:14:19 GMT
So, on Saturday I almost came home from our walk with two dogs instead of 3. We always use the same route on our walks because we have to if we want to get to the good places. It involves going under a main road and as we come through the underpass, normally the dogs just carry on straight ahead down the path. Yesterday, as we came back up the hill to join the main path, there was a woman coming towards us with a pug that I'd never seen before so I got out a treat to try and distract Cody as we went past them as I usually do (can't tell how he'll react to new dogs so I take precautions until we know what the new dog is like) and called him to me. He ran towards me, but instead of stopping, he went past me and as I turned round, Pepper was taking off up the hill towards the fence at the top. Beyond the fence is a busy main road. I shouted at her to stop, which she did. She turned and looked at me for a couple of seconds and then in the next second, she was through the fence. I immediately panicked - up until that point I'd stayed fairly calm, although my shouting was probably quite angry because I was worrying about her going through the fence - and I had to go up the hill too. Luckily for me, there was a kind man walking down the path and he started calling to Pepper to try and get her to go to him. Because she's scared of strangers, if one tries to get her to go to them, she runs back to me. So thankfully, instead of running into the road, she came back through the fence to me and I could grab her. She got shouted at and pushed down the hill (well, she was given a shove in that direction) before I said thank you to the man. Normally Pepper is pretty good about stopping when she's told, but the reason for her disobedience was because some idiot had left an unfinished takeaway on top of the wall that's at the top of the hill! Her nose was in the air the whole time she was running up the hill so I have no idea what was in the container (I'm betting kebab) but she wanted it! She was put on the lead when we got to the underpass today and I'd taken the long line with me so I could work on her recall as I will admit, I've never formally worked on it with her. Mostly because in a class environment, we never had trouble at all. She always came running straight back to me when we'd work on recall in the training classes she attended. Out in the field though, she does tend to do her own thing and because it's an enclosed field with nothing in it other than a few bits of rubbish that footballers have left behind (plastic bottles), I've never worried too much. Today we had a bit of a training session and she started coming back fairly well. Cut to a little video - plenty of distractions here: This was the last recall of the day before we left the field so she was a bit slower than she had been earlier, but it was still positive. At one point, all five of the dogs were in a stay position and the three owners were walking away, completely coincidental, but if anyone had been observing us, we would have looked like a really successful group! Anyone have any particular tips for recall? I was essentially just walking away from her and calling her, then rewarding her when she got to me. Also, apologies for the length of the post!
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Post by bextull on Apr 19, 2015 22:50:05 GMT
At least you got her back okay eventually on Saturday. Obviously there is nothing you can do now but if you find yourself in the situation again, the best thing to do is to turn and run as soon as she stops to look at you. Most dogs will bound off after you, plenty of praise and encouragement given too. In the video, while you do give her praise in the end, I notice that there isn't much encouragement and praise being given WHILE she is actually walking TO you. The slower the dog returns to you, the more chance there is of them losing interesting and forgetting why it is they are walking in that direct to begin with. So the more excited you are to see her coming back to you in turn will make her more excited to get back to you and she'll be more focused on getting back to get whatever great things you have for her. With Oscar I signal recall once (in his case it's either the whistle or the verbal "to me"), then I crouch down open my arms and really encourage him to get to me as quick as possible. He get's lots of "good boy" and "good lad" while he's racing to me and when he gets to me he's told he's the best lad in the world, plenty of attention and usually something tasty to eat. Sometimes when he gets to me I'll start to run away quickly, and make it into a short chasing game. Other times I'll throw a treat to the side or behind me as he gets to me and he'll bounce after it, then out of habit he'll shoot back over to me looking for something else. Usually he ends up heeling for a while in the hopes of getting something until he's told to bugger off and run around. Oscar is always back and forth to me on walks. He'll wander off, then race back hoping to get something. What he gets is a lottery, sometimes it's food, other times it's just praise, he might get a pat on the head, or he might get a game of chase. It's a habit now for him which makes recall a bit difficult because he wont leave me alone. But sometimes he'll have raced to the bottom of a field after a bird or some scent and then he'll race back up to me. I wouldn't have asked him to do so but he's doing it anyway so WHILE he is coming to me (in full sprint, it's all or nothing with this lunatic) I will give my recall signal. This reinforces the idea that this sound means run to me as fast as you can. He doesn't usually get a food reward for that, just praise and then is released to sniff but now he's got an entirely new side of the field to explore. I do have loads more tips, I just can't think of them right now but hopefully the above helped a little? I will say though that if I asked Oscar to recall as you did Pepper in the video, he'd probably look at me and tell me to p*ss off. For Oscar the key is enthusiasm and excitement, if you're not happy to see him (even if it's a lie) then he'll be much more hesitant the next time you ask him to come back. ETA, with anything recall related I will always recommend the book "Total Recall" by Pippa Mattinson. The best book I've ever read regarding recall, focusing on just recall. And I honestly think that anybody getting a dog should buy and read before the animal steps foot in your home.
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Post by orpheous87 on Apr 19, 2015 23:06:46 GMT
At least you got her back okay eventually on Saturday. Obviously there is nothing you can do now but if you find yourself in the situation again, the best thing to do is to turn and run as soon as she stops to look at you. Most dogs will bound off after you, plenty of praise and encouragement given too. In the video, while you do give her praise in the end, I notice that there isn't much encouragement and praise being given WHILE she is actually walking TO you. The slower the dog returns to you, the more chance there is of them losing interesting and forgetting why it is they are walking in that direct to begin with. So the more excited you are to see her coming back to you in turn will make her more excited to get back to you and she'll be more focused on getting back to get whatever great things you have for her. With Oscar I signal recall once (in his case it's either the whistle or the verbal "to me"), then I crouch down open my arms and really encourage him to get to me as quick as possible. He get's lots of "good boy" and "good lad" while he's racing to me and when he gets to me he's told he's the best lad in the world, plenty of attention and usually something tasty to eat. Sometimes when he gets to me I'll start to run away quickly, and make it into a short chasing game. Other times I'll throw a treat to the side or behind me as he gets to me and he'll bounce after it, then out of habit he'll shoot back over to me looking for something else. Usually he ends up heeling for a while in the hopes of getting something until he's told to bugger off and run around. Oscar is always back and forth to me on walks. He'll wander off, then race back hoping to get something. What he gets is a lottery, sometimes it's food, other times it's just praise, he might get a pat on the head, or he might get a game of chase. It's a habit now for him which makes recall a bit difficult because he wont leave me alone. But sometimes he'll have raced to the bottom of a field after a bird or some scent and then he'll race back up to me. I wouldn't have asked him to do so but he's doing it anyway so WHILE he is coming to me (in full sprint, it's all or nothing with this lunatic) I will give my recall signal. This reinforces the idea that this sound means run to me as fast as you can. He doesn't usually get a food reward for that, just praise and then is released to sniff but now he's got an entirely new side of the field to explore. I do have loads more tips, I just can't think of them right now but hopefully the above helped a little? I will say though that if I asked Oscar to recall as you did Pepper in the video, he'd probably look at me and tell me to p*ss off. For Oscar the key is enthusiasm and excitement, if you're not happy to see him (even if it's a lie) then he'll be much more hesitant the next time you ask him to come back. This is very true, but Pepper isn't most dogs and has, in the past, just gone and done her own thing anyway as soon as we've turned our backs! I also have the problem of not being able to run properly/quickly due to bad knees so sprinting is hard. I do try if I have to run though! I agree - that's mostly because I hate the sound of my own voice on film and didn't want it in the video but obviously that's impossible if doing a recall. I had praised her a lot more during the previous recalls, I promise! This is usually Pepper once we're in the field. On our walk to the field, she often dawdles behind, sniffing at anything and everything. I definitely need to start recalling her more on the walk up to the field too as that's where we're more likely to run into distractions. I just started in the field to build it up. Usually we end up throwing the ball in the field, which Pepper is not interested in, so she tends to either wander around, roll in the grass, or sit close to me. I had visions of having trouble with practicing recall because of that, which is why I ended up putting her into a sit and making her wait before calling her to me. I will welcome anymore tips if you think of them later! Pepper can be particularly hard to motivate at times, no matter how excited I sound, so I'm always on the lookout for new ideas. Haha, that's fair enough! I did initially call her before I started the video and when she speeds up, it's because I've crouched down so this probably wasn't the best example of what we did today. It just took me till the end of the walk to think to take a video.
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Post by alfiemummy on Apr 19, 2015 23:09:31 GMT
Glad she was okay and you got her back! Agree with bextull about turning and running away. One side of our local woods is very close to a main road (60mph A road), one day I wasn't paying complete attention to Alfie as I was talking to a friend while we were walking and the next thing I knew I spotted him sniffing a lamp post with all the cars rushing by just feet away from him! Inside I was in a blind panic but instinctively I shouted his name in the happiest way I could manage, made loads of squeaky happy noises and belted away from him - he came flying after me! (thank goodness!) I put him on the lead over that side of the woods now, or keep a very close eye on him. Not sure how well that would work though if she was on the hunt for food? For Alfie's recall I do pretty much the same, nice loud happy shout and lots of squeaky 'come on!'s while he's returning to me, when he gets back he gets a super tasty treat and a load of praise - people must think I've escaped from the mental home with all the stupid noises I make and I feel like a bit of an idiot but if it works... If I don't get enthusiastic then he isn't as quick and often gets distracted by smells on the way. Alfie sounds a lot like Oscar! He also loves a short chase and is always hovering around me now and won't go away because we have been practicing loads. I have been trying to train with his whistle but he never goes away in the first place haha If I ever call him and he looks but I think he won't come, I always start running away from him and he can't resist. Also agree with the Total Recall book, bextull recommended it to me for whistle training and it is amazing!
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Post by alfiemummy on Apr 19, 2015 23:11:44 GMT
Oops, looks like we overlapped posts haha!
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Post by orpheous87 on Apr 20, 2015 0:12:55 GMT
I'm always shouting and cheering at Pepper in the field because I try and encourage her to chase a ball and get a bit more exercise, so when she actually goes after a ball, she gets lots of cheers and encouragement to bring the ball back.
I think if it happens again (fingers crossed it won't), I'll walk away from her. I know that running will have a better effect, but walking should work too lol.
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candy
Settling in well!
Posts: 62
Animals I love: ALL ANIMALS...
Pets I own: CANDY ....MY FLATCOAT RETRIEVER....MY BABY.... x x
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Post by candy on Apr 20, 2015 12:14:17 GMT
So, on Saturday I almost came home from our walk with two dogs instead of 3 Normally Pepper is pretty good about stopping when she's told, but the reason for her disobedience was because some idiot had left an unfinished takeaway on top of the wall that's at the top of the hill! Her nose was in the air the whole time she was running up the hill so I have no idea what was in the container (I'm betting kebab) but she wanted it! HI ..... Candy done this to me end of last year for 1st time ever... she went out of my sight.... i felt sick... she went in bushes i found her eating old bread n poo..... .... she seemed to go through a faze of nose to floor just 2 find poo to eat..... have been stopping her doing this by following her and if she finds poo i run up n spray body spray at poo... or playing golf with her... seems to have worked ,,, but carnt keep doing this every time...lol .. so as others have said i have just finished reading TOTAL RECALL... PIPPA MATTINSON... got from library... she talks about whistle n very high value treats.... only calling once.... re.training or refreshing recall... its all in there... very good read... i going to start this week with whistle again.... but its hard isnt when they get their noses working... she goes into a working zone,... wish you luck.. ....
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Post by bextull on Apr 20, 2015 13:02:58 GMT
This is very true, but Pepper isn't most dogs and has, in the past, just gone and done her own thing anyway as soon as we've turned our backs! I also have the problem of not being able to run properly/quickly due to bad knees so sprinting is hard. I do try if I have to run though! I agree - that's mostly because I hate the sound of my own voice on film and didn't want it in the video but obviously that's impossible if doing a recall. I had praised her a lot more during the previous recalls, I promise! This is usually Pepper once we're in the field. On our walk to the field, she often dawdles behind, sniffing at anything and everything. I definitely need to start recalling her more on the walk up to the field too as that's where we're more likely to run into distractions. I just started in the field to build it up. Usually we end up throwing the ball in the field, which Pepper is not interested in, so she tends to either wander around, roll in the grass, or sit close to me. I had visions of having trouble with practicing recall because of that, which is why I ended up putting her into a sit and making her wait before calling her to me. I will welcome anymore tips if you think of them later! Pepper can be particularly hard to motivate at times, no matter how excited I sound, so I'm always on the lookout for new ideas. Haha, that's fair enough! I did initially call her before I started the video and when she speeds up, it's because I've crouched down so this probably wasn't the best example of what we did today. It just took me till the end of the walk to think to take a video. I can sympathise with the bad knees. I take joint supplements as a result of mine but that's what jumping drains, gates, ditches and holes on a daily basis will do to your joints. Generally I'd just take some quick steps backwards and clap my hands or something as oppose to running. Does the trick. If you reward with food, it might be worth trying throwing the treats. It might get her a bit more excited, and if not then at least she gets to use her nose for something useful as oppose to going off to use it elsewhere. Oscar doesn't play so I have to improvise with food. I was going to say don't feed her if you're going to work on recall but you feed once a day don't you? In which case that wont work. But you can always practice recall around the house and reward her with her dinner. Calling her from one room to another, putting her in a stay then going off to hide and call her. Oscar loves that but then again I do have a huge area to work with at home so he still gets to full on sprint towards me. Alfie sounds a lot like Oscar! He also loves a short chase and is always hovering around me now and won't go away because we have been practicing loads. I have been trying to train with his whistle but he never goes away in the first place haha If I ever call him and he looks but I think he won't come, I always start running away from him and he can't resist. Also agree with the Total Recall book, bextull recommended it to me for whistle training and it is amazing! If I want to practice these days he has to be put in a stay and then I have to walk off and recall him. If not as soon as he even sees me lift the whistle or look like I'm going to call he's straight over(obviously I must look or act a certain way when I'm going to call him, or he can read minds ). HI ..... Candy done this to me end of last year for 1st time ever... she went out of my sight.... i felt sick... she went in bushes i found her eating old bread n poo..... .... she seemed to go through a faze of nose to floor just 2 find poo to eat..... have been stopping her doing this by following her and if she finds poo i run up n spray body spray at poo... or playing golf with her... seems to have worked ,,, but carnt keep doing this every time...lol .. so as others have said i have just finished reading TOTAL RECALL... PIPPA MATTINSON... got from library... she talks about whistle n very high value treats.... only calling once.... re.training or refreshing recall... its all in there... very good read... i going to start this week with whistle again.... but its hard isnt when they get their noses working... she goes into a working zone,... wish you luck.. .... Please don't spray body spray on it. Not only is it really bad for the environment (releasing the spray itself but also it being sprayed directly onto the poo and the surrounding area), it's not good for your dog to be inhaling and possibly eating it either. If you're able to run up and spray it before your dog gets there then why don't you try getting your dogs attention instead and directing her away from it and teaching her a strong "leave it" command. Spraying the poo with body spray doesn't solve the problem at all. It will deter your dog but it doesn't teach her what to do instead.
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Post by teegiebear on Apr 20, 2015 16:48:59 GMT
Eeeeek scarey stuff
Recall is all about making yourself exciting and going back to basics, a long line and harness should help to get the recall sharpened to instant. I keep saying to Andrew don't just call the dogs name, they know their names! He's shouting dexter dexter and dexter like yeh what do you want? Enzo/dexter come is their command and when they're coming I sometimes do like others have said like good boy keep coming hurry up etc. with the long line and harness it's like have it loose and call them, and make the dog come by using the lead so the don't ignore your. Show them what you want them do do for that command. Then next time they should hopefully associate it and use the long line and harness to sharpen it, call in when they are distracted sniffing and the likes and if you can play hide and seek! It may take a few times. Wander about a field or somewhere with them and randomly call in but don't let pepper ignore you. If you call pepper and get ignored use the long line to pull and remind her that means Oi that means come here. Most useful thing I got told was you are teaching them to recall on comman, not teaching them to ignore their name and do what they like, show them what you want. I play it with mines all the time especially with enzo as dexter goes so far and looks for us but if Enzos playing up and is lagging behind or sniffing too much on something that's obviosuly more interesting that me I hide (and if dexter by me I get him to hide with me) behind a bush, in a ditch and they soon learn to keep an eye on u. I use my arms 2 arms in the air when I shout so they can see from a distance or if I'm walking I sometimes drop one to the side and they come into my side, took some practice but It's a visual for them even if they don't hear everything when it's windy or the likes it might get their attention hearing me and then see me. Running away works for me but Id admit id struggle to shout and walk the other way if I was in a panic. When ive got them and they're acting up I'll walk one way and if one isn't paying attention I'll walk so far and call them in then if they go to far I'll change directions, it's up to them to watch for me as much as me to watch them. Enzo is a major sniffer and would be happy sniffing all day but he will come flying looking for us if we've left him but try it in safe places first.
(Okies I've kinda jumped about adding bits in so I'm not sure if I've repeated but hope it helps)
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Post by orpheous87 on Apr 20, 2015 17:13:59 GMT
Thanks candy, I'll keep that book in mind for when I get paid! I can sympathise with the bad knees. I take joint supplements as a result of mine but that's what jumping drains, gates, ditches and holes on a daily basis will do to your joints. Generally I'd just take some quick steps backwards and clap my hands or something as oppose to running. Does the trick. If you reward with food, it might be worth trying throwing the treats. It might get her a bit more excited, and if not then at least she gets to use her nose for something useful as oppose to going off to use it elsewhere. Oscar doesn't play so I have to improvise with food. I was going to say don't feed her if you're going to work on recall but you feed once a day don't you? In which case that wont work. But you can always practice recall around the house and reward her with her dinner. Calling her from one room to another, putting her in a stay then going off to hide and call her. Oscar loves that but then again I do have a huge area to work with at home so he still gets to full on sprint towards me. Haha, I take supplements for my knees too. They help, but one of my knees is prone to collapsing which isn't really helped by glucosamine! The problem I have with throwing treats when I'm out on a walk is that Ellie and Cody are much quicker than Pepper! And there would be a fight if Ellie was anywhere near where the treat landed. And I have the same problem in the house too, because if you call one of them, they all come running because they're all terrified that the one you call is going to get a treat of some sort and they're not. This is the main reason for me doing some training out in the field with the long line because Ellie gets tired of chasing a ball after so long and will just wander around, sniffing so I get chance to work with Pepper. I sound like I'm just making excuses not to use your ideas, but these are genuine problems lol. I can throw treats if there's only one dog with me, but when I have two or more, it doesn't work as well. Ellie almost always gets every single treat that is thrown.
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Post by orpheous87 on Apr 20, 2015 17:19:51 GMT
Eeeeek scarey stuff Recall is all about making yourself exciting and going back to basics, a long line and harness should help to get the recall sharpened to instant. I keep saying to Andrew don't just call the dogs name, they know their names! He's shouting dexter dexter and dexter like yeh what do you want? Enzo/dexter come is their command and when they're coming I sometimes do like others have said like good boy keep coming hurry up etc. with the long line and harness it's like have it loose and call them, and make the dog come by using the lead so the don't ignore your. Show them what you want them do do for that command. Then next time they should hopefully associate it and use the long line and harness to sharpen it, call in when they are distracted sniffing and the likes and if you can play hide and seek! It may take a few times. Wander about a field or somewhere with them and randomly call in but don't let pepper ignore you. If you call pepper and get ignored use the long line to pull and remind her that means Oi that means come here. Most useful thing I got told was you are teaching them to recall on comman, not teaching them to ignore their name and do what they like, show them what you want. I play it with mines all the time especially with enzo as dexter goes so far and looks for us but if Enzos playing up and is lagging behind or sniffing too much on something that's obviosuly more interesting that me I hide (and if dexter by me I get him to hide with me) behind a bush, in a ditch and they soon learn to keep an eye on u. I use my arms 2 arms in the air when I shout so they can see from a distance or if I'm walking I sometimes drop one to the side and they come into my side, took some practice but It's a visual for them even if they don't hear everything when it's windy or the likes it might get their attention hearing me and then see me. Running away works for me but Id admit id struggle to shout and walk the other way if I was in a panic. When ive got them and they're acting up I'll walk one way and if one isn't paying attention I'll walk so far and call them in then if they go to far I'll change directions, it's up to them to watch for me as much as me to watch them. Enzo is a major sniffer and would be happy sniffing all day but he will come flying looking for us if we've left him but try it in safe places first. (Okies I've kinda jumped about adding bits in so I'm not sure if I've repeated but hope it helps) Haha, it's ok that you jumped about. I've played hide and seek with them before. Pepper will come running to where I am and then just stare at me as though to say "What on earth are you doing?" lol. I was aiming to use the long line to make sure she came on Sunday but I didn't really need to use it. I may have to put it on her when we're walking to/from the field too but I'm a bit concerned she'll get snagged on something as she's all over the place on that bit of the walk. I usually open my arms wide when I'm calling her to me so I get what you mean there. I did a recall workshop with Ellie some time last year, but only because it was tied in with a loose lead workshop. I could have done with taking Pepper for the recall bits and Ellie for the loose lead work! Ellie's recall is fine lol. I was using a bit of the work we did there on Sunday too, which worked quite well.
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Post by cazypops on Apr 20, 2015 20:15:41 GMT
I can't add any more to what the others have said, except that using any sort of food treat on our Jasper is useless, he's just not interested. The only thing that's been of any use is a stick, but now we're trying to stop him having sticks as he eats them, then throws up. (usually on our bed) Anyway as well as doing training with Jasper, I'm also having to train OH to. He's not the most patient of people. So now when we want Jasper to come to us, and he ignores us, we will walk away until we're just outside of Jaspers sight and call him then wait. (We can see him but he can't see us.) When he does eventually come, he gets lots of good boys and hugs and loves. and the OH is told reward because he's come and don't shout at him because he didn't do it straight away.
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Post by orpheous87 on Apr 20, 2015 23:44:17 GMT
Thanks cazypops, I'll keep persevering with her lol. Hope you manage it with Jasper (and OH) too!
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Post by smilesbetter on Apr 21, 2015 7:52:29 GMT
What I've always and continue to do with Rosa, is firstly calling her back now and then on walks when she wasn't distracted and I knew she would, then giving her a treat and loads of excited praise, then over time doing it when there was huge distractions (like she was playing with a dog in the dog park), giving her a reward and excited praise. Always after recall (except at the end of a walk) she gets very quickly told to go off and play again so she doesn't associate it with going on the lead or anything.
I still recall her for absolutely no reason on most walks we do so she has it down well. The only thing that distracts her from me is if she sees someone throwing a ball around or another dog she hasn't yet met is coming up (although we are getting better at that). Those are simply because we haven't had much opportunity for practice with people throwing balls (although no I think about it, I will orchestrate some situations), and with new dogs, ever since she was a puppy she has been rewarded for ignoring me on this as dogs always seem to be off lead here and despite her being on lead, the dogs come up and meet her so she gets rewarded for ignoring my request for her to stop trying to get to them and at least look at me and wait for allowance to go over first. We are planning on joining a few training classes soon though so hopefully we can improve that one, although she is amazing at training class recall haha.
In a situation where she is running towards a dog she hasn't met yet, I have found that running away and waving my arms around (which seems to catch her eye more) usually works to catch her haha. Makes me look like a complete psychopath but it gets me my dog back.
I absolutely never shout after her angrily, what dog would want to go back to that? I shout with a high pitched voice as she seems to respond better to that and finds it more exciting. Even with new dogs, she now usually checks with me first but not 100% of the time yet, but with people throwing balls she seems to go into "ballballballballball" mode, urgh haha. I'll need to work on that one.
Also I have been training her absolutely not to set foot on a road without the "cross" command. The way I had been training this before hadn't worked at all so now what I do is turn and block her from stepping onto the road simply by being in her way, and stand and gawp around to see if cars are coming, not letting her off the kerb. Surprisingly this seems to be working and she is now waiting at kerbs more often. I do this at every kerb and hopefully one day she will get it. She is never on the pavement off lead but I hope that if something ever happened where she was (for example a ball going onto the road) then she will know not to go off the pavement for it. Obviously as she gets better at the pavement thing I will add distractions, most likely including a ball at a super quiet road to try and reinforce this.
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Post by alfiemummy on Apr 21, 2015 12:16:27 GMT
Alfie must have been reading all the good things I had said about his recall on here and decided to show me up this morning...
I was walking him with another dog (Archie) and was distracted because Archie was saying hello to another dog so I was keeping an eye on him. While I was distracted Alfie slipped off into a ditch. I wasn't overly concerned as he couldn't get anywhere except come back out again so I called him.... Nothing. It was so overgrown I couldn't see him anywhere and after a few more calls I decided I had to go and get him as he wasn't going to come back on his own. I had to fight through all the undergrowth and brambles and bring poor Archie with me (didn't want to lose both of them!), when i finally got to the bottom he was nowhere to be seen, I walked up and down a bit and called a few more times and still nothing so climbed my way back up only to find him wandering around up the top having a good sniff about and merrily ignoring me. I was not amused!
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