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Post by organisedchaos on Aug 25, 2013 20:33:08 GMT
Hi. My Sprocker was attacked when he was only 10 weeks old and as since has been very unstable emotionally. We went on holiday last week and in a strange place this seemed to settle him down, however upon returning home, he has been worse than before we went away. He is constanting wanting attention and bites either my hand (starts light and gentle, but then gets rough!) He also likes to jump up and come at the back of my shoulder when you walk away from him. Any advice. I've tried yelping but this only excites him more. Now trying water spray which semi works. Is is that he is trying to dominate or is he just very excitable? I understand that the timing of castration was possibly a trigger also as he was done when he was 6 months old.
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Post by scallywag on Aug 25, 2013 22:12:57 GMT
I have similar problem with Beau except he goes for the back of my ankle when I walk away. I yelp in as high pitch that I can and he goes all timid as if realises he has done wrong. I have always put it down to attention seeking. And if that doesn't stop him, as he comes back for more, then I back him into a room tell him NO and leave him to calm down for 5 mins, he hates that and comes out a lot calmer. Good luck with finding a solution to your problem and hopefully someone else canngive you more advice / suggestions on here  |
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Post by charlottte on Aug 26, 2013 5:24:56 GMT
I'll start be saying It isn't dominance. Dogs don't try to dominate humans (or other dogs!). It's always been used as an excuse for poor behaviour. There are many lines of thought on dominance/submission/pack theory and i personally think that dominance is a relationship between two individual dogs and it can change with the circumstances. Dog A may be able to better retain food from Dog B, but Dog B may be able to better retain a comfy resting place. Dominance changes with whatever the dog sees as being the important resource and being able to successfully retain it. As for the biting, I share your pain. We had a Labrador that would do this whenever we came back from a walk. I put it down to frustration/excitement. My brother also has an inappropriately socialised staffy who does it. Her's is frustration/stress. She doesn't know how to express herself appropriately. Does she only do this in the house? Or when you see other dogs on walks too? Did she get let off on holiday or was she strictly lead walked? Also do you do any mental stimulation with her (scentwork, training, working for her food) at all? Scallywags idea of removing from the room is brilliant and is exactly what we did with our lab (I left the room though, trying to force a 20kg lab out the door wasn't the easiest of things to do  ). When she starts say nothing, turn your back and walk from the room. I know it's hard when she's trying to drag you to the floor. Our lab used to jump and grab my hood and try and play tug with it... But pleeease don't use the water spray! It's aversive and can make your dog fearful/unsure of you. It also wont teach her what you want her to do instead (or help her to deal with the cause of the behaviour).I don't like to anthropomorphise but I would hate it if whenever I got frustrated/stressed and flitted around someone they sprayed me with water. Sorry for the 20 questions, just trying to get a better grip on things |
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Post by charlottte on Aug 26, 2013 5:26:23 GMT
I AM SO SORRY! I referred to him as 'her/she' throughout my post! I don't know where I got the she from!
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Post by charlottte on Aug 26, 2013 5:27:38 GMT
P.s. how old is he now?
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Post by caz2golden on Aug 26, 2013 5:34:03 GMT
In what situations does this happen, in house, on walks, when on lead, when off lead, when just out of car/start walks.....?
I have limited experience of this kind of thing!
If its at very start of walks then you may need to work at waiting for calm before releasing from the car.
Also you can try to walk on lead for a while before releasing to hopefully reduce the excitement levels.
If it is when on lead you can whip lead under your foot just to prevent the kangaroo jump and give you and dog a few minutes 'time out' to settle (and for your blood boiling to cool) before dealing with the next jump or it may just calm down enough to stop next jump.
If off lead - not so easy!! I guess!!
You could try and train a no jump command in a training situation and then transfer to being off lead outdoors
Have you tried a very sharp, harsh, loud, 'Leave/stop/no' .... whatever command you use to say this behavior is not acceptable and then turn away from dog and walk away, i.e you are not joining in.
I think if its an off lead thing if my dog did something like this after the first 'no' then they would find themselves back on lead till the calm down and then I would release again.
hth
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Post by organisedchaos on Aug 26, 2013 9:51:45 GMT
Ok. So I have read the comments above and have taken everything on board. I don't see the biting as an agressive form as he seems to do it our of fun/frustration. He only does this behaviour when he is loose, both inside the house and outside (in large garden and at park).
When on holiday he was let off on several occasions, however when in a 1/2 acre enclosed area with my son and I, he would occasionally go for my sons hood, resulting in him going back on the lead and taken out of the area.
I take him to dog training once a week and he is now working towards his Kennel Club Good Citizen SILVER award. I know this will take a long time to achieve as he is not accepting me grooming him and tries to bite the brush. At a recent class, he went for another dog whom he has seen and played with on numerous occasions. I immediately told him off and then with the other dog put under controlled submission and the instructor in very close proximity was asked to walk him up and let him sniff the read end - He went for the dog again from a distance. I have been taught to use the 'turn away' command which is working well. He seems to be sparked by any dog who makes eye contact and so was told to avoid eye contact with him when he is being told off.
When he bites my arm, I say a loud sharp 'No' and try to get hold of his collar to put him in either the sit or down position so that I can calm him down. He often flips over whilst still trying to bite or plays jump from side to side as if its a game. On some occasions, he does calm down but on others it doesn't. I do try to avoid eye contact with him when he behaves badly as have found that if I don't, it just winds him up (play bark and snaps air with wrinkled nose).
He is very clingy when it comes to his bed and any large soft toys. He often trys to hump them and at times my leg. I am unable to sit on the seatee or the floor at his level as he takes it as an open invite to jump on my head.
Would like to do either rally or agility or even maybe both? Also use a clicker from a young age with really works. If he jumps up, should I teach him to sit or down and then click and reward? If he jumps on the seatee, should I teach him to get off and go to mat and then reward him for going on his mat?
He is definately the sort of dog who craves attention but that gets narky when tired which is understandable. He is always so happy to see you, even if you literally step out the front door and then turn around and re-enter - It is as if you have been away and he thinks he was left forever.
We do have a crate and he goes in that freely with just the word 'Crate'.
Does this help give any more suggestions?
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Post by charlottte on Aug 26, 2013 11:29:58 GMT
It certainly sounds like frustration to me.
Do you do daily training or mind games with him?
You have a mix of two very high energy breeds which need to be stimulated (agility would be brilliant for him! I'm doing rally with my boy and it is a bit sedentary, so some higher energy dogs get a bit bored) as I'm sure you already know!
You say you have a son, does he play wrestle with him? Of has he ever play wrestled with him?
Can I ask what you mean by 'controlled submission'? Do you mean forcing the other dog onto its side?
Also, when you say clingy, do you mean guardy - does he show aggression/stress when you approach the object, Or does he just carry stuff around etc?
Have you had him health checked by a vet? That would rule out any medical causes for the behaviour.
If he is reactive in class then I would say that the environment is pushing him over his threshold and he feels as though he needs to deal with the situation himself. The more reactive dogs practise the reactive behaviour successfully (the dog/person backs/goes away) the more it will occur as it works.
Training wise, teach a sit first if he doesn't already know it. Practise practise practise. Try and keep some treats nearby so when he jumps up, ask him to sit (if its been prepped enough, he should sit), when he does, click and then reward him looads. Not just one treat, 5 or 6 - it's got to be worth his while. If he doesn't do it straight away, leave the room or wait it out. It's difficult but as long as you're consistent, he should get the idea.
For off the sofa, get a really yummy treat and hold it near his nose. Pull it away and down towards the floor. He should follow it. As soon as his paws are on the floor, click and reward.
Once you can bet money that he will do it, you can add the cue (off, floor etc). If you add it before you know he'll do it and he doesn't do it, it could result in the cue becoming 'poisoned' and meaningless.
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Post by charlottte on Aug 26, 2013 11:33:23 GMT
Also I would avoid trying to physically put him
In a sit/down by using his collar. He obviously is uncomfortable with it, or sees it as a game (as I haven't seen how he acts in that situation, I can't gauge which one it is).
If he sees it as a game, he will find it rewarding and do it more. Dogs do what works for them, what they find reinforcing (even if we bloody hate it lol)
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Post by organisedchaos on Aug 26, 2013 12:46:46 GMT
Yes any physical handling is definately a game to him and so the idea is to try and get him to understand with a clicker rather than hands on.
I understand about the sofa and the off and will try that more.
I can see what you mean with regard to rally - It may not be challenging enough for all his bubbliness. When we are at training, unless we are doing something, he is either flopped out asleep or getting up to mayhem - I put this down to him needing more directional encouragement and so try to get him to practice his stays and watch me commands - this seems to work.
My son whose nearly 12yrs doesn't really play with the dog much as he finds him a bit too excitable and in your face. He will stroke him and make a fuss when the dog seems settled. The dog does have a habit of running in from the garden and jumping up to say hi. My son doesn't really use any commands like off or down and has to be reminded (or rescued from the dog). My son has never really wrestled with the dog, but you can imagine how he feels when 'Scooter' jumps up and is nearly head height to him. My son tends to put his arms up and also raises his leg to make a barrier - This I know is the wrong approach, however getting thruogh to a very stubborn and head strong 11yr old is near impossible.
Would anyone advise using a muzzle? I spoke to both my vet and my dog club instructor and they have agreed that it is always advisable to get a dog 'used to' and 'comfortable with' wearing a muzzle. Could this be put into practice when a hard bite is received - only for a couple of minutes. Let me have your thoughts!!!
The submissive position of the dog (a 3yr old sprocker bitch) at club was not forced, it just rolled upside down and had its tummy tickled by both the owner and the instructor. No threat to my dog at all.
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Post by fatamorgana on Aug 26, 2013 13:51:48 GMT
You say you use 'turn away' command and it works - have you tried it in the jumping up sitaution? If not - is it worth a go?
Another thing you could try is to teach him to sit instantly on command even at a distance. Tie him up and train him just out of his reach. Aim for immediate response. If he starts getting giddy, walk away few steps. As soon as he is attentive to you go back to the safe distance and carry on training. As he gets better, increase the distance by one step and keep training. Train in the house, the garden, the park, wherever and whenever - make it the highlight of you interaction. The idea is that you should be able to get him to sit before he takes a leap at you or your son.
What kind of exercise does your dog get every day? How much attention do you pay to him every day?
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Post by caz2golden on Aug 26, 2013 16:36:02 GMT
Ok. So I have read the comments above and have taken everything on board. I don't see the biting as an agressive form as he seems to do it our of fun/frustration. He only does this behaviour when he is loose, both inside the house and outside (in large garden and at park). To be honest any form of biting be it frustration, excitement or aggressive has to be stopped. If he does this to anyone other than your family you could find yourself in trouble in the sense of the law. You should seek your dog trainers advice on this and they should offer sound advice and if you are not happy with the first line of training they offer say no and insist on another method. If your trainer is advocating the forced submissive role take care, may of us on here are wary of this kind of training. |
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Post by CollieSlave on Aug 26, 2013 17:37:25 GMT
Ok. So I have read the comments above and have taken everything on board. I don't see the biting as an agressive form as he seems to do it our of fun/frustration. He only does this behaviour when he is loose, both inside the house and outside (in large garden and at park). To be honest any form of biting be it frustration, excitement or aggressive has to be stopped. If he does this to anyone other than your family you could find yourself in trouble in the sense of the law. You should seek your dog trainers advice on this and they should offer sound advice and if you are not happy with the first line of training they offer say no and insist on another method. If your trainer is advocating the forced submissive role take care, may of us on here are wary of this kind of training. And it could make matters FAR worse! |
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Post by scallywag on Aug 26, 2013 21:07:29 GMT
organisedchaos you could be talking about Beau in most of what your last post said. We found that turning your back on him and ignored him calmed him down, once calm we then spoke to him calmly. When I showed him it was not on to mouth, I didn't say No I screached Ekkkkkkk as high pitched as I could, that was more efective and sounds like when the pup was young and Mum told it off. I also agree that you should not grab the collar to enforce any actions, that also made Beau bounce back and think it was a game  . good luck with finding what works for you and don't hesitate to keep asking over and over any advice you hope to seek from here.
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Post by rebeccabecca on Sept 5, 2013 19:09:08 GMT
Ollie had a problem with this when he was younger, we found turning our back on him and ignoring him really did the trick. Ollie did it for attention, and when he realised he wasn't getting any, he gave up! Good luck!
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). When she starts say nothing, turn your back and walk from the room. I know it's hard when she's trying to drag you to the floor. Our lab used to jump and grab my hood and try and play tug with it...
. good luck with finding what works for you and don't hesitate to keep asking over and over any advice you hope to seek from here.
