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Post by smilesbetter on Sept 25, 2015 3:12:32 GMT
A Berliner breeder has been ordered to castrate her Canadian Sphynx cat because he has no whiskers, and the court says that breeding a cat which is missing a sensory organ would be animal cruelty. The owner says that she will appeal the ruling, and that if the breeding of Canadian Sphynxes gets banned it will lead to "black market breeders" and the welfare of the animals will be at further risk. She says her cat gets on fine without whiskers and he doesn't miss having them. www.thelocal.de/20150924/willi-the-naked-cat-must-be-castrated-court-rulesThat's the only English language report on it I could find, the German ones are pretty similar. The breeder has gone to the tabloids about it. However I came across a German cat website that covered the article, and it later stated that the breeder is not unknown among cat breeding Facebook pages etc, and that the 4 year old cat (who won the 2013 Berlin Cat Show apparently) suffers a heart illness as well. I don't know whether this issue was brought up in court too or not but I would suspect it was if it is true. What are your opinions on this? It hadn't occurred to me that Canadian Sphynx cats don't have whiskers. At first I thought that if they were to effectively ban a cat breed, then there is loads of dog breeds they should effectively ban too, but of course it's different with Sphynx cats because although the dogs are bred to have all sorts of things which cause a huge amount of health issues, they do still have all of their sensory organs usually. It is illegal to remove a cats whiskers or nails in Germany and apparently breeding a cat without whiskers could also be counted under this, although I have not read the legislation myself so don't quote me in that one. There is a lot of Sphynx breeders here in Berlin. When we were looking to get a cat (Carlotta) we kept seeing Sphynx kittens (which can cost over 1,000€ per kitten) advertised around Berlin. Never been a fan of the breed myself, I have to admit I find them quite creepy looking and I'm more of a long haired cat fan anyway.
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Post by dutchkitties on Sept 25, 2015 8:34:57 GMT
An exaggerated decision. As long as the cat is healthy, there is no problem. There can be another reason that the cat has no whiskers. My cat Panter had none. She was a wild kitten and her mother had bitten them off to keep her close. It never bothered her and she knew exactly if an opening was big enough for her.
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Post by smilesbetter on Sept 25, 2015 8:48:39 GMT
It makes me wonder if cats without whiskers are like people who are born blind, and make up for it by heightening other senses?
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Post by lotsofcats on Sept 25, 2015 11:12:53 GMT
I'd never thought of the Sphynx as having no whiskers. I think it's a bit drastic to tell the breeder to have the male cat castrated - these cats don't go out for a start and wouldn't be trying to get into small spaces in the garden etc. I'm no fan of the breed either, they look like aliens! I much prefer long haired cats.
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Post by Roo on Sept 25, 2015 12:26:55 GMT
I personally love the breed I don't know enough about cats to comment however.
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Post by smilesbetter on Sept 25, 2015 14:40:21 GMT
It's a tough one I think, I'm not sure whether I agree with the court ruling or not. Alight if the cat has really got a heart issue (and at only 4 years old!) then it definitely should be bred from again anyway unless it definitely can't be passed on to the offspring.
There are quite a few dog breeds that I think shouldn't be allowed to be bred (unless the breeder is actively breeding away from those traits) so it's a tough one. Cats have whiskers on various parts of their bodies, not all to do with fitting into tight spaces as far as I know (don't they have ones around the anus, for example, or am I going mad thinking that?). I really don't know enough about it to pass judgement though. There are other health issues the Sphynx is known for that are directly related to having no hair though, and In a way I don't really like that many breeders do not allow their kittens to go to a home where they would be let outside anyway, never mind a cat which has been bred to have a trait which disallows it from ever being able to go outside alone in most cases. Some people have great houses for indoor cats but the majority don't, and I wouldn't get another cat that couldn't go outside unless there was a really good reason like an illness or something. We actually specifically got Carlotta because she was an adult cat who had never been outside in her life, but even then I aim to be able to let her outside or have a cat enclosure as soon as I can. Sphinxes are really high energy cats as far as I know and can go a bit mad if they aren't provided with a lot of stimulation living indoors (as do many cats, but they are well known for it). I'm not saying ban the breeding of them for that reason, just saying its a shame.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2015 21:44:43 GMT
It's a tough one I think, I'm not sure whether I agree with the court ruling or not. Alight if the cat has really got a heart issue (and at only 4 years old!) then it definitely should be bred from again anyway unless it definitely can't be passed on to the offspring. THAT would be my main issue! If it has a hereditary problem that can be passed on then neutering is the only responsible way to go and SHOULD be compulsory! As to a breeder telling me I have to keep my cat indoors....well, I wouldn't let them know that they go out! Nobody tells me how to care for my animals!!! No way would I keep my cats indoors 24/7 as IN MY VIEW (not having a go at anyone who does have indoor cats) they need that stimulation to have a full life. When I look at how Chilli and Lily were when indoors 24/7 and how they are now....well, they're completely different and happier cats I am very lucky in that it's as safe as anywhere could be in a town (albeit a rural one) and being surrounded by overgrown gardens DOES help divert them away from that one road outside our courtyard. If I lived in a busy town however I think I would rather NOT have a cat than have one stuck indoors all day for the whole of it's life
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Post by pixiepops on Sept 25, 2015 22:03:58 GMT
If the cat has health issues (i.e the heart condition) then I agree with the forcing of the cat being neutered. No reputable and responsible breeder would dare to breed from an unhealthy cat. Sure, the heart condition may not be serious or cause problems, but that then means there is a very high chance any offspring will be born with the genes (if genetic) that they could then also pass on if sold as a breeding queen, etc. Not to mention the heightened risk of any offspring being born with the heart condition also if, as I said before, it is a genetic problem. So on that count I agree with having her neuter the male. I didnt know that Canadian Sphynx cats didnt have whiskers, but then again if the are meant to, as someone stated before, it could have been caused by the mother cat or be something else entirely. @gillykat some breeds need to be indoor cats for many reasons. Take Ragdolls and Sphynx for example. Ragdoll cats are unable to fend for themselves in the outdoors and therefore if faced with the need to do so could end up with serious injury or worse, death. Sphynx cats do not have fur, and therefore, need to be kept warm. Letting them go outdoors could cause so many health problems for them so they need to be indoor cats. They do not have the same ability as furry cats to control their body temperature Side note: Both of my cats are indoor cats. Dexter has been an indoor cat due to his heart condition and the fact he is unable to fend for himself, he doesnt have the same strength or ability to defend himself as other cats. Both my cats are very happy and have all the toys and stimulation they need. They have countless cat trees of all shapes and sizes, a toy box filled with different toys, they have a catit senses circuit, Feather sticks, etc. I always make sure to have an hours play with them each day and they also have each other to play with I personally do not trust letting my cats out as I wouldnt like for them to be involved in an RTA, to be targeted by little thugs who need a good kicking up the derriere by their parents, injury from other animals (which could also include infection and disease), etc. At least with my cats being indoors, I know where they are and that they are protected at all times.
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Post by tonib on Sept 25, 2015 22:43:10 GMT
I'm not the biggest fan of Sphynxes but I've seen a few at the various cat shows I go to with Ajax, in fact one of her Devon Rexes is from a breeder who also breeds Sphynxes. However I'm not sure whether I've seen them with whiskers or not. Interestingly the GCCF Breed Standard of Points www.gccfcats.org/Portals/0/Sphynx.SOP.pdf states The use of the word "any" seems to imply they may or may not have whiskers. I'm going to a show tomorrow with Ajax so I'll see what I can find out. They aren't completely bald but have a soft down. There is a bit of information on the breed at www.gccfcats.org/Cat-Breeds/Sphynx It does refer to them being reported to be affected by HCM. reeding policy Also from their breeding policy so no way to test for it at the moment. However the court ruling raises an interesting question in my mind. Does this mean that in German law any cat not being bred from has to be neutered (regardless of whether you or I consider this a preferable decision) or is this specific cat to be neutered as they don't trust the breeder not to breed from it despite the various "defects"?
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Post by smilesbetter on Sept 26, 2015 6:16:53 GMT
@gillykat I was looking at Turkish Van cats and Norwegian Forest Cats in the UK once and for both about 90% of the breeders website I looked at mentioned that they would make you sign a contract on getting the kitten that included that the cat just be an indoor cat or the breeder would take them back. Both are cats developed from land race breeds as far as I know and can certainly handle themselves outside, the only issue I could see personally would be someone stealing the Turkish Van as unfortunately white and mainly white cats are very popular, I have that worry for Carlotta but I really do want to be able to let her out when we get a place which is suitable. Although if she stays as sickly as she is now then obviously we can't let her out, I mean she hasn't even left the living room since two days ago. And I agree, unless there is a really good reason then I prefer cats to go outside, it's the only real reason we didn't get a kitten here as we didn't want to bring a kitten up for a life (or certainly a good few years) as an indoor cat. I think being indoors 24/7 can make many cats go a bit mad. Carlotta certainly is, and Mieze really really needs to get outdoors which is why we've been wanting to get her to my parents' if we don't move any time soon, it'll be a long journey to get her there but I really feel that it would be the second best thing for her (best being if we got a suitable place here and she could get outside). pixiepops according to a German article I read, Canadian Sphynxes don't have whiskers generally, it seems to be linked to the not having hair. Also, don't you think it's cruel to breed a cat that because of the traits that we humans have bred into it, it can't go outside? If someone kept a dog indoors for its entire life they would have it taken off them and charged with animal cruelty. I'm not saying that should be the case with cats or anything but I don't like the breeding of an animal who has to live a sheltered life because of some trait that humans like and want to breed into it, for example the many snub nosed dog breeds I see here who can't even walk or breath properly, it makes me want to cry when I go to the dog park and see the regular French Bulldog who goes there who tried to play with the other dogs but a) the other dogs seem to find his face and loud panting quite off putting and generally avoid him, and b) he can't keep up with the other dogs and spends the entire time waddling after them loudly breathing and honking like a duck because he is over doing it. Also I can see why you'd keep a cat with a heart condition in, depending on the condition, that's a good reason, in my eyes. My cat Bramble (who is missing) had a heart murmur and we do wonder if she has died because of it, although no cat bodies have ever been reported found in the neighbourhood (although no one seems to report that kind of thing!). We did let her out although for years she refused to leave the house haha, when she was about six she started going out and never left the garden really. I'm glad we let her out though, she loved stalking birds around the garden and although I wish we had her with us now, she was never really happy being indoors all the time. As I say, some people have fantastic set ups for indoor cats (I am so jealous of anyone who has a cat area on their ceilings and high up the walls with shelving and hammocks and stuff, my man won't let me build one here). Ours could certainly be improved, we have been working on getting shelving for them to be able to completely get around a room without needing to go on the floor (that does seem to make cats much happier) but the stupid walls here crumble away when I try to put a shelf in, or are too hard for anything to go into. My cats seem happy enough indoors but I know for Mieze especially that she needs to go outdoors, and Carlotta seems to be completely insane. tonib I wonder if any breeders cut the whiskers then to fit that ideal. And no, you don't have to neuter your cat here although it is obviously encouraged if you do not plan to breed from it. However this lady is intending to breed from her cat and has done already, and could easily breed from him if she wanted at home with her own three females or with someone else's as a stud and get away with it. So I think it's because they don't trust the breeder. I think she really does intend to breed from him. She has three breeding females and he is her only male, for example, and having won the 2013 cat show she can presumably charge a bit for the mating (many people won't know about the heart illness, and the newspapers aren't reporting it so to be honest she's getting great advertising for people who want to breed their female Sphynxes haha), her name has been included in most of the articles plus her cats name and the area of Berlin she lives in, so she'd be easy enough to contact. However that's my opinion and maybe she won't breed him, and I can see how even if she didn't intend to breed him, castrating him would be an issue as presumably she would still like to take him to shows and things. I don't know enough about cat shows so I don't know whether castration is allowed or not, but I would wonder as to whether, even if it was allowed, judges would favour entire cats over castrated ones.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2015 9:40:05 GMT
Yes, I can see why folk would keep a Sphynx indoors but if it were mine and I lived in a completely safe area (when I win the lottery I'll be surrounded by acres of land with only a dirt track to reach the house so no traffic whatsoever ) I would still give the cat the option of in or out. They probably wouldn't want to go out when it was wet or cold anyway Didn't know that about Ragdolls though! And Turkish Van & Norwegian Forest too!!!! That really IS ridiculous....especially the latter breed! Jeez, let cats BE cats.....it sounds like some breeders are just being power mad and trying to control the lives of their kittens Just like children you cannot really wrap a cat in cotton wool so it never has an accident or comes into contact with germs The majority of our oldie fosters never wanted to go out and were quite content with their cushy warm indoor life. Even darling Hattie would, after jut a few minutes sun in the courtyard, come to me and sit down and look and indicate that she wanted to be taken back upstairs.
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Post by tonib on Sept 26, 2015 18:50:34 GMT
I suspect that some breeders are more worried about the cats being left to roam & getting injured or infected or stolen (for what ever purpose), especially as some breeds are rarer. At the cat show today the Sphynx didn't have whiskers, apparently it is the exception to have them. smilesbetter in the GCCF shows the neuters are judged separately to the entire cats with males & females splitting it still further. However the best in show is across all levels, gender & sexual status. The household pet section cats (pedigree or non-pedigree) have to be neutered after the age of 6 months.
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Post by smilesbetter on Sept 26, 2015 22:20:30 GMT
That's good that they are judged differently (Other than best in show), that's fairer at least. What sections are there other than household cat? :S
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Post by tonib on Sept 27, 2015 0:55:33 GMT
smilesbetter, the following is from the GCCf show manager's information pack www.gccfcats.org/Portals/0/sminfoposting.pdfThe Pedigree breeds are split into:- Persain (incl. Exotics) Semi-Long Hair (Birmans & other Semi-Long Haired) British (incl. Selkirk Rex) (covers British Shorthair, Manx & Selkirk Rex) Foreign made up of Original Foreign (Abyssinian, Korat & Thai, Russian Blue) Foreign Rex & Sphynx (Cornish & Devon Rex, La Perm, Sphynx) Any other Foreign (Asian, Ocicat, Ocicat Classic, Tonkinese ,Bengal, Singapura, E Mau) Burmese Oriental (inc Oriental Longhair) Siamese (inc Balinese) However at the Olympian level the judging is across all breeds. In Household Pets it is across both Pedigree & Non-Pedigree. The Pedigree classes are judged on the standards for the breed but in the Household Pet (pedigree or non) it is based on temperament, condition, grooming and character of the cat. a Household Pedigree Pet is defined as Hope that all makes sense
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Post by pixiepops on Sept 27, 2015 12:06:33 GMT
smilesbetter I dont condone the breeding of an animal when it is not in that animals best interests. If their are reasons for breeding certain things into a line to better the breed and help to combat, or at least limit, genetic conditions then surely that can only be a good thing. If it is for cosmetic or personal reasons then no I do not agree with it at all in any form. Personally I would like to see breeding stopped for a period of time to help get on top of the ever growing numbers of cats in the UK that are homeless, abandoned, etc. Not saying it is breeders faults this is happening, as its not, if responsible then breeders make sure their cats always have homes and take any back if circumstances change, however, there are over 9 million cats now in the UK alone With that sort of statistic it really hits home why we need to push neutering/spaying and shut down every BYB.
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